Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

Shade said:
Yes, you are absolutely correct. At CR 20, the archfiend should only tap about 20% of a standard party of four's resources. They can then proceed to tne next rooms and drop a few more. :(

As has already been quoted, the intention was that the demon lord not be encountered alone. With a proper entourage, an EL 24 is likely. (IME, singular big baddies don't tend to be as effective or balanced an encounter as groups, especially at these levels.)

But if you don't like it, use the provided guidelines to tweak it up. Stop making out as if you are stuck using the baseline version. You aren't.
 

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Psion said:
As has already been quoted, the intention was that the demon lord not be encountered alone. With a proper entourage, an EL 24 is likely. (IME, singular big baddies don't tend to be as effective or balanced an encounter as groups, especially at these levels.)

But if you don't like it, use the provided guidelines to tweak it up. Stop making out as if you are stuck using the baseline version. You aren't.



I'm not worried about stats for my campaign, I have DF for that. It just offends my that WotC would make the officail versions this weak. Why couldn't they have made Demogorgon CR 90 with rules for deadvancing him? and belive me, It's not that much harder to deadvance.
 

Giygasfan said:
Why couldn't they have made Demogorgon CR 90 with rules for deadvancing him?

Because the CR 90 rules would almost literally be used by nobody.

and belive me, It's not that much harder to deadvance.

No, sorry, I do not beleive you. Even in character design programs, there are admonitions that "regressing characters" is error prone. In a statistics block, things like how many skill ranks a creature has are not shown. You have to reverse engineer what it has to take things away. When adding things you... just have to add things.
 
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Psion said:
Because the CR 90 rules would almost literally be used by nobody.



No, sorry, I do not beleive you. Even in character design programs, there are admonitions that "regressing characters" is error prone. In a statistics block, things like how many skill ranks a creature has are not shown. You have to reverse engineer what it has to take things away. When adding things you... just have to add things.



Most of the people I game with would use those stats. most of the gamers i know do uberEpic games quite often, so I doubt that almost no one would use them. just becouse you don't know any epic gamers doesn't mean there aren't any.

As for deadvancing, just look up what type of HD it has to get skill points. I honestly don't see how its that hard, I don't have trouble with it.
 

Gold Roger said:
By the way, Eric just confirmed in the q&a thread that the book mentions multiple times that demon lords have godlike control over their layer (as do various other official sources anyway, as far as I remember).
Mentioning that in the fluff text is fine, but if it#s not an ability written in their stat blocks they simply do not have these abilities.
Psion said:
The metasetting part is the fluff. The stats are tools.
Yes. And if the stats don't match the fluff the metasetting falls apart
 
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Giygasfan said:
Most of the people I game with would use those stats. most of the gamers i know do uberEpic games quite often, so I doubt that almost no one would use them. just becouse you don't know any epic gamers doesn't mean there aren't any.

As for deadvancing, just look up what type of HD it has to get skill points. I honestly don't see how its that hard, I don't have trouble with it.

I partially agree (it's a bit harder to get skill points than this, since the Int of the creature also factors into it, and the degree to which it's reduced), but I think your general point is valid.

Additionally, if deadvancing is being put forth as an error prone process, how much more error-prone is it, or might it be, to advance a unique creature that ought to have unique qualities (or improve the ones it already has)?
 

Giygasfan said:
Most of the people I game with would use those stats. most of the gamers i know do uberEpic games quite often, so I doubt that almost no one would use them.

I've done epic levels before. Epic in the ballpark of CR90 is another kettle of fish entirely.

just becouse you don't know any epic gamers doesn't mean there aren't any.

Sure. But it's in the minority. You don't sell a product by catering to a small minority. You do what you can in the space you have. And they've done that. They've provided a baseline in reach of the plurality of the audience, and provided scaling notes to keep it usable to those who want it to be more challenging.

As for deadvancing, just look up what type of HD it has to get skill points. I honestly don't see how its that hard, I don't have trouble with it.

Figuring how many skill points is just the beginning of the battle. How do you know that you have done it right? The stat block does not let you know what levels the character took intelligence bonuses at. I usually fail liberal here and assume that any bonuses to intelligence happened early, but still, that's an added step of complication and second guessing that I would not have to have gone through.

Then I have to reverse engineer the skill modifiers into ranks and bonuses to make sure I am not going into the negatives on any skill ranks, or to see if any synergy modifiers go away.

And then, the advancement notes talk about adding spell like and other abilities. Which are the right ones to shave off?

Finally, that you have no trouble de-advancing thing is a good skill to have if you have truly mastered it. I would think that if you could de-advance, you could advance it. If you find mechanical manipulation no big deal, then why are you making all this fuss.

And let's get back to the real point here. If you want, and will actually make use of CR 90 statistics, you are in the minority. It makes no sense to cater to just you, or to primarily you. Far more people would have to be doing work to lower it to the low 20s range than the amount of people who will be doing the work to raise it to the CR90 range.

And, on another point, a CR90 creature would have a much larger statistic block, with more special abilities, skills, and feats. The creature would take up even more pages in a book that already suffers from page crunch.

You are asking WotC to deliver a book to you that meets your exact needs at the expense of a much larger segment of the audience. That's unreasonable.
 

Mirtek said:
Yes. And if the stats don't match the fluff the metasetting falls apart

The stats are meant to be manipulated. If you think that it doesn't fit your vision of the metasetting, change them. Quit acting like the stats are precisely the singular official representation of the creatures. That's not the intention and the authors have already amplified that.
 

Psion said:
I've done epic levels before. Epic in the ballpark of CR90 is another kettle of fish entirely.



Sure. But it's in the minority. You don't sell a product by catering to a small minority. You do what you can in the space you have. And they've done that. They've provided a baseline in reach of the plurality of the audience, and provided scaling notes to keep it usable to those who want it to be more challenging.



Figuring how many skill points is just the beginning of the battle. How do you know that you have done it right? The stat block does not let you know what levels the character took intelligence bonuses at. I usually fail liberal here and assume that any bonuses to intelligence happened early, but still, that's an added step of complication and second guessing that I would not have to have gone through.

Then I have to reverse engineer the skill modifiers into ranks and bonuses to make sure I am not going into the negatives on any skill ranks, or to see if any synergy modifiers go away.

And then, the advancement notes talk about adding spell like and other abilities. Which are the right ones to shave off?

Finally, that you have no trouble de-advancing thing is a good skill to have if you have truly mastered it. I would think that if you could de-advance, you could advance it. If you find mechanical manipulation no big deal, then why are you making all this fuss.

And let's get back to the real point here. If you want, and will actually make use of CR 90 statistics, you are in the minority. It makes no sense to cater to just you, or to primarily you. Far more people would have to be doing work to lower it to the low 20s range than the amount of people who will be doing the work to raise it to the CR90 range.

And, on another point, a CR90 creature would have a much larger statistic block, with more special abilities, skills, and feats. The creature would take up even more pages in a book that already suffers from page crunch.

You are asking WotC to deliver a book to you that meets your exact needs at the expense of a much larger segment of the audience. That's unreasonable.


Look, Psion, you & I obviosly don't see eye to eye on this and aren't going to anytime soon. therfore I'm just going to stop arguing w/you becouse I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine. We both have different on what WotC "should" have done.
 

Space considerations aside, why not do something similar to Amber Diceless in its presentations of the main characters of the novels?

That is, two or three versions of different power levels and possible abilities based on story and legend. .

So you could have (for example):

Demogorgon - Lovecraftian Abomination from Beyond the Stars version (CR 50)
Demogorgon - Liege of the Death Knights version (CR 30)
Demogorgon - Demon Lord of Apes version (CR 25)
 

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