Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Uder]

I'm not worried about stats for my campaign, I have DF for that. It just offends my that WotC would make the officail versions this weak. Why couldn't they have made Demogorgon CR 90 with rules for deadvancing him? and belive me, It's not that much harder to deadvance.

So you wouldn't use whatever stats they would present anyway, but you want to make him useless for 99%* of the players out there? I... I... I just said something to my screen that Eric's gramma wouldn't approve.


* granted, I made this number up. It's probably closer to 98.66%

 

[Shade]

I've not noticed my books crumbling... or my campaign... with the publication of this book.

I was replying to Uder's opinion that the metasetting is unimportant, not the impact of this one element on the metasetting.

The entire book is metasetting....it doesn't take place in Greyhawk, the Realms, or Eberron.

 

[Giygasfan]

I've not noticed my books crumbling... or my campaign... with the publication of this book.

What shade is trying to say is that if everyone had Uder's philosophy, then there wouldn't be any Demon Princes to argue about. there wouldn't be any flavor at all. there would just be stats, becouse "the DMs can make up their own flavor". well, I for one, say (censored) to that.

 

[Shade]

What shade is trying to say is that if everyone had Uder's philosophy, then there wouldn't be any Demon Princes to argue about. there wouldn't be any flavor at all. there would just be stats, becouse "the DMs can make up their own flavor". well, I for one, say (censored) to that.

Thank you. Words are beginning to fail me in this tired debate.

 

[Uder]

You do realize that if there wasn't a metasetting, there wouldn't be any demon lords and no Fiendish Codex, right?

There isn't a metasetting. There are bits of sometimes contradictory flavor thrown in to fire your imagination. The idea that it is binding in any way on anyone's campaign is abhorrent to me. Seeing this flavor referred to as RAW is a travesty.

Well, maybe I don't feel that strongly, but seeing someone offended that Demogorgon isn't CR90 has got me waxing hyperbolic.

 

[Shade]

There isn't a metasetting. There are bits of sometimes contradictory flavor thrown in to fire your imagination. The idea that it is binding in any way on anyone's campaign is abhorrent to me. Seeing this flavor referred to as RAW is a travesty.

Well, maybe I don't feel that strongly, but seeing someone offended that Demogorgon isn't CR90 has got me waxing hyperbolic.

That is a metasetting, like it or not. If it is just random chunks of flavor not linked in any way, it serves no purpose. The Great Wheel is a metasetting; it doesn't exist in any of the currently supported campaign settings.

I am definitely not suggesting that you have to use any or all of it, just like I'm not insisting you use a warlock or psion.

 

[JustaPlayer]

So you wouldn't use whatever stats they would present anyway, but you want to make him useless for 99%* of the players out there? I... I... I just said something to my screen that Eric's gramma wouldn't approve.


* granted, I made this number up. It's probably closer to 98.66%

If there were 3 versions at different points of power I wouldn't mind. Hell, if there was a version in a book of CR40 and I know my player's/character's would never nead, I wouldn't mind. I do mind nerfing very much though. I would rather have these beings be something I'm more than likely never going up against than just another ho-hum encounter.

 

[Psion]

I was replying to Uder's opinion that the metasetting is unimportant, not the impact of this one element on the metasetting.

The entire book is metasetting....it doesn't take place in Greyhawk, the Realms, or Eberron.

I suspect that he was needling Mirtek a bit. The metasetting is not going to "fall". My lions are not going to sleep with lambs and my githyanki are still going to hate illithids in the morning.

The metasetting will change, shift, and be inconsistant. It always has. Formians became boss in mechanus. The demi and quasi elemental planes disappeared. The astral plane expanded to encompass the entirety of the multiverse and the ethereal plane shrunk to become only next door to the prime. (All these are quite a bit more concrete and irrefutable effect on metasetting that giving GMs demons that are tweakable.)

Yet we are still enjoying a book on the metasetting based on assumptions that date back to Eldritch Wizardry.

The metasetting is in no danger of "falling".

 

[Seeten]

So how about those Yankees? (No, not the Githyanki's...*sigh*)

 

[Uder]

That is a metasetting, like it or not. If it is just random chunks of flavor not linked in any way, it serves no purpose. The Great Wheel is a metasetting; it doesn't exist in any of the currently supported campaign settings.

I am definitely not suggesting that you have to use any or all of it, just like I'm not insisting you use a warlock or psion.

Hmmm, since we're talking about food (Mmmm, chunks of flaaaaavor) try this: Go to your kitchen and pick a handful/pinch/dollop/whatever of your favorite foods. Put them in a broth, and make some metasoup. What's that? Steak & Ice Cream Swiss Chocolate Waffle soup is terrible? That's metasoup for ya.

I entirely disagree that unrelated chunks of flavor serve no purpose. First, they give people who play the game away from the table something to puzzle over and try to form a metasetting out of Second, they are inspiring to those who like to build their own worlds.

The metasetting you imply (Planescape with the numbers filed off, every campaign exists in the same multiverse, every pantheon that ever existed, etc) has led to beings that can only be represented by rules that aren't fun to play.

It sounds like they did the sensible thing. Archfiends are the best big bads in the game, and now we get them at levels that don't require juryrigged rules to use at the table. For those that enjoy statting out monsters, a baseline is provided... remember alt.rangers? Now we've got alt.archfiends... more fun for everyone!