Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Shade]

<has "qwerty" imprinted on forehead>

Most of the flavor in this book is the metasetting, is the Great Wheel. Use what you'd like, but don't pretend that it is something that it isn't. The "little chunks of flavor" you reference is something like "Like succubi, glabrezu tempt victims into ruin, but they lure their prey with power or wealth rather than passion." Describing how the demons link to their peers, the various planes of the Abyss, the Queen of Chaos, the devils, the eladrins...this is metasetting. This is the bulk of the book.

 

[Uder]

<has "qwerty" imprinted on forehead>

You're too close to it. Back off, or get a better light.

I'm talking about the keyboard. Yep, that's it.

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Just to be perfectly clear, Dicefreaks does not have a CR 90 Demogorgon either.

The concern raised over this issue isn't about whether the fiends should be CR 25-30, or CR 30-50, or CR 50+. All of those number spreads are beyond the 'standard game' cap of 20. CR 25-30 are capable of being taken down through some careful planning of the PCs, perhaps a little campaign help as well. They still fit in the 'standard' game. The other spreads are clearly epic. And the differences between them are one of taste.

This is a concern with having demon princes on an equal or even lesser level than the demons they are supposed to rule. The usage of these stats in a 'real game' that doesn't go to epic can be a valid concern, but at CR 25-30, the concern is no more than that of using a great wyrm dragon in such a game. It can be done. Not even with that much work.

Putting the demon lords at CR 19-23 makes them not "challenging culminations of a 20th level campaign" but "easily won fights at 20th level" And including an entourage is no excuse for the low levels.

When you have a creature that is supposed to rule demons (forget about concerning the gods, or ruling entire layers/planes) then you should make a person believe that they can rule demons. After all, if you have a 5th level necromancer, no one is going to believe that they can rule over an army of thousands of undead. A 17th level lich necromancer on the other hand, could very well accomplish such a feat. If you have a dragon terrorizing a country, it shouldn't be a CR 2 wyrmling. Stats should reflect flavor. And when angry balors can take you out on an 'off day', you will have problems being their ruler.

That's what doesn't make sense here. On a greater level than 'demon princes and gods clash together, and either can come out the victor'. People can and do disagree about whether demon princes should challenge the gods. That's where the CR 25-30 vs CR 50+ comes in. Those are the matters of opinion. There is no 'opinion' about demon lords that suggests they should be defeated by an angry balor, or even a irritated maralith. There is no baseline that suggests a CR 23 demon lord makes sense, let along a CR 19.

No one is mad about being allowed to advance demon lords from a certain base. They are mad about having that base not make a single wit of sense.

 

[Uder]

There is no 'opinion' about demon lords that suggests they should be defeated by an angry balor, or even a irritated maralith.

Nice handwave. I believe it should be possible (but hard)... if a demon lord was ever stupid enough to get into a one-on-one fight with a balor on the PMP.

 

[Coriat]

Nice handwave. I believe it should be possible (but hard)... if a demon lord was ever stupid enough to get into a one-on-one fight with a balor on the PMP.

Maybe he should have said no sensible opinion

Putting kidding aside, though, it does not make sense that they have survived for millenia of intimidating and enslaving lesser demons if those demons can kill them pretty easily (after all, what's a hard fight for one balor is an easy fight for two... and balors have summon balor)

 

[hexgrid]

Maybe he should have said no sensible opinion

Putting kidding aside, though, it does not make sense that they have survived for millenia of intimidating and enslaving lesser demons if those demons can kill them pretty easily (after all, what's a hard fight for one balor is an easy fight for two... and balors have summon balor)

But seeing as how balors go up to 60HD, and there's an infinite number of them, it doesn't seem like a demon lord of any CR would be safe...

Maybe the real problem here is with the CR of balors, not the CR of demon lords.

 

[Giygasfan]

Just to be perfectly clear, Dicefreaks does not have a CR 90 Demogorgon either.

I didn't mean to say they did, I just put that in as a CR that would be Greater god strength. CR 75, or 80, or 85 would be just as well.

 

[hexgrid]

And including an entourage is no excuse for the low levels.

It is too an excuse, and based on the idea of providing reasonable challenges for 20th level characters, it's a perfectly reasonable one.

Unless you're running an orc and pie scenario, the demon lord is nearly guaranteed to have an entourage. Its CR needs to take this into account.

 

[JustaPlayer]

But seeing as how balors go up to 60HD, and there's an infinite number of them, it doesn't seem like a demon lord of any CR would be safe...

Maybe the real problem here is with the CR of balors, not the CR of demon lords.

No, I see no problem with that balor. I think the problem is that they delibrately took something that should be just out of reach and made it just another MOB.

 

[Shade]

It is too an excuse, and based on the idea of providing reasonable challenges for 20th level characters, it's a perfectly reasonable one.

Unless you're running an orc and pie scenario, the demon lord is nearly guaranteed to have an entourage. Its CR needs to take this into account.

Not necessarilly. You can run them as a separate encounter only after their minions were slain. One of those "kill are the guards and then proceed to the leader, who has spent the whole time preparing himself". Most of them have hefty summoning abilities, which are factored into their own CR, and thus don't increase the EL. Of course, if those summoning powers have been lessened now, this argument loses weight.