Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Ripzerai]

Maybe the real problem here is with the CR of balors, not the CR of demon lords.

Ignore advanced balors, then. Get me some demon lords who can, at their base hit dice, reliably destroy unadvanced balors.

That means start them at least at CR 21.

If that's too much to ask, then why are there no complaints about how hard Demogorgon is to kill? Cripes, he's CR 23! With his entourage and other assets, only the epic munchkins have a chance against him! He's useless in my game!

Heck, they could have put them all at CR 21. Because flavor and the history of the game doesn't matter, right? So why not make them all equally powerful? That would have been so much more useful in a non-epic game than this ridiculous CR 23 business. If you want Demogorgon to be tougher than Juiblex, you can advance him yourself.

 

[Toras]

It is too an excuse, and based on the idea of providing reasonable challenges for 20th level characters, it's a perfectly reasonable one.

Unless you're running an orc and pie scenario, the demon lord is nearly guaranteed to have an entourage. Its CR needs to take this into account.

Even if you freeze your character's level at 20, I would not characterize assaulting a Demon Lord within his realm (where his entourage will primarily exist) as a 'reasonable challenge'. It should be an awe inspiring task, the likes of which would shatter a lesser person to attempt. An awesome battle the scope and depth of which would defy description. The sky should be shrowded by winged angels and flying demons, locked in combat more terrible than can be imagined.

The characters should be in the thick of it, their hard one allies and stalwart friends holding the way to the Demon Lord's seat of power. Noble men and Celestial falling around them, they charge forth, having gathered the greatest strength that their kind has to offer. Eldritch magics long thought lost to forgotten empires fire forth, and the touch of a deity invested within his chosen echo through the din.

The fight to the chamber should be dangerous, frot with peril beyond hope. The character's navigate their way through should be perilous, possible only by unsurpassed wits and writings a damned soul found while upon the quest. When they arrive, it is a battle of most grave consequences from which some if not all of them might never return. But in the end, they stand triumphant by their own hand or slain in the persuit.

That's why the CR and the lack luster stats stick so heavily in my craw. The battle should be at the very edge of possibility for the party, success possible only with a tremendous amount of prep and effort. When they are done, it should be as if the jaws of hell itself snapped shut, close enough to feel its passing. It should be the crowning achievement of a rich and diverse game rather than another Boss at the End of the Level, before you fight Diablo or getting the powerup.

 

[James Jacobs]

One thing to keep in mind as well is the fact that very few people have actually seen the statblocks for the demon lords. Can a CR 23 creature reasonably hope to beat a CR 20 one? Easilly. Taking the CR 23 Demogorgon statblock as an example, he'll automaticaly hit the balor with every one of his 8 attacks (unless he rolls a natural 1, of course, and those attacks will be dealing significant Constitution drain and level drain), whereas the balor's best attack has only a 40% chance of hitting (and it goes down from there). The CR 23 Demogorgon should have little to no problem killing balors, even if they gang up on him in groups of 2 or 3.

If your game features advanced balors, you should also feature equally advanced demon lords at the very least, so this argument is spurious at best.

Again, my personal taste for demon lords is at the levels they're appearing in the Demonomicon articles in Dragon, but the baseline stat blocks that appear in Fiendish Codex are NOT wimpy stat blocks.

 

[Uder]

Unless you're running an orc and pie scenario, the demon lord is nearly guaranteed to have an entourage. Its CR needs to take this into account.

Erm, that's not what CR is for. CR is for determining xp awards of individual critters.

If that's too much to ask, then why are there no complaints about how hard Demogorgon is to kill? Cripes, he's CR 23! With his entourage and other assets, only the epic munchkins have a chance against him! He's useless in my game!

Depends on what the stats look like. He's worth a lot of xp, that's for sure. With characters of level 18-19, there's no telling what can happen, even when the by-the-book EL starts pushing 30.

For a capped out party at 20th level, the equipment guidelines break down. If they've been adventuring for a while since hitting the cap, they may have very good gear.

Heck, they could have put them all at CR 21. Because flavor and the history of the game doesn't matter, right? So why not make them all equally powerful? That would have been so much more useful in a non-epic game than this ridiculous CR 23 business. If you want Demogorgon to be tougher than Juiblex, you can advance him yourself.

CR19+ sounds like a good xp award to me. Have you got a point, or is it all sarcasm from this point out?

 

[Ripzerai]

Have you got a point

You didn't catch it? Look harder.

 

[BryonD]

One thing to keep in mind as well is the fact that very few people have actually seen the statblocks for the demon lords. Can a CR 23 creature reasonably hope to beat a CR 20 one? Easilly. Taking the CR 23 Demogorgon statblock as an example, he'll automaticaly hit the balor with every one of his 8 attacks (unless he rolls a natural 1, of course, and those attacks will be dealing significant Constitution drain and level drain), whereas the balor's best attack has only a 40% chance of hitting (and it goes down from there). The CR 23 Demogorgon should have little to no problem killing balors, even if they gang up on him in groups of 2 or 3.

If your game features advanced balors, you should also feature equally advanced demon lords at the very least, so this argument is spurious at best.

Again, my personal taste for demon lords is at the levels they're appearing in the Demonomicon articles in Dragon, but the baseline stat blocks that appear in Fiendish Codex are NOT wimpy stat blocks.

Are you saying that the CRs may be wrong? (not an new concept there)
Or are you simply pointing out that a CR23 creature is expected to easily defeat a CR20 creature in a one on one?

 

[BryonD]

The metasetting is in no danger of "falling".

That is absolutely true.

It is much more likely that the metasetting will continue to evolve and change, but will steamroll onward and leave this concept in the gutter.
Which is too bad. (the book, not that the metasetting will move on beyond it)

 

[Psion]

That is absolutely true.

It is much more likely that the metasetting will continue to evolve and change, but will steamroll onward and leave this concept in the gutter.

So, am I supposed to disagree with this notion?

Because I don't. The stats aren't supposed to be a metasetting alteration. In a month, this thread will be forgotten. Well, by most of us at least.

 

[Knight Otu]

Are you saying that the CRs may be wrong? (not an new concept there)
Or are you simply pointing out that a CR23 creature is expected to easily defeat a CR20 creature in a one on one?

It should be kept in mind that CR is not a good measure of power - it is a measure of how much of a challenge a creature is to a typical party of four. If someone really wanted, they could have a CR 12 demon lord that simply has the ability to dominate non-lord demons, no save allowed (ignoring how bad of a design that would be). Of course, it is a rough measure of power, but by no mean an exact one (who would win in a battle between a balor and a tarrasque, assuming that indefinite unconciousness also counts as a win?).

Just for the record, I still feel that the demon lords could be extended out to CR 27 without breaking the idea that they can be challenged by non-epic parties.

 

[Ripzerai]

Really, though, if he considered the addition of such powers to demon lords and archdevils so indispensible, why not include them for the big bads included in Monster Manual II?

My guess is, because Gygax assumed they were plenty powerful enough to squash mere mortals in anything he regarded as a reasonable campaign. Considering the levels most campaigns got to - including Gygax's own - those demons were epic creatures for the time.

The primary reason to give them the power of gods is if gods themselves had stats - which they probably wouldn't, unless one had Deities & Demigods. Because Gygax did recognize that it was important for the sake of campaign consistency for Asmodeus not to be easily bullied around by Hextor.

Graz'zt, in Gygax's writings, drove a demigod (Raxivort) from his plane and sired a demigod himself. It's clear what power level he thought his demon princes should be at.

Now, naturally, you may disagree and do what you want in your own campaign. But don't look for Gygax to back you up on this one.

Certainly adding such powers to these beings makes the deeds of Zagyg, Erac's Cousin, Robilar and others seem impossible...

Guh? Zagyg wasn't a PC, he was a deus ex machina - and everything he did broke the rules. Erac's Cousin got treated like a little toy by Fraz'urb-luu; Robilar wisely fled when confronted by Iuz, and didn't dare try to engage Zuggtmoy.

Isle of the Ape doesn't even let you fight Iggwilv. And he's been very critical about Q1. Gods and demon lords definitely were deus ex machinas in his campaign, not foes.