Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[BryonD]

So, am I supposed to disagree with this notion?

No. I'm just say what I think. Agreement or disagreement last time doesn't chnage that.

Because I don't. The stats aren't supposed to be a metasetting alteration.

I really did not expect you would.

In a month, this thread will be forgotten.
Well, by most of us at least.

It's a curse.

 

[BryonD]

It should be kept in mind that CR is not a good measure of power - it is a measure of how much of a challenge a creature is to a typical party of four.

Tell it to the party of four Balors.

If someone really wanted, they could have a CR 12 demon lord that simply has the ability to dominate non-lord demons, no save allowed (ignoring how bad of a design that would be). Of course, it is a rough measure of power, but by no mean an exact one (who would win in a battle between a balor and a tarrasque, assuming that indefinite unconciousness also counts as a win?).

Of course.
But (a) that isn't in this book and (b) I don't believe (IMHO) that there are a great majority of people who desire anything approaching this.

 

[Li Shenron]

I just chime in to say that each of us makes her own assumptions. Too many assumptions, and we don't even easily accept how others are playing with very different assumptions and still having a lot of fun.

Our games never even 20th level, and when we reach level 15th we feel like we're on the top of the (known) world in power. A balrog with 18 CR is already sort of a demon lord for us, as it takes an entire campaign usually to be able to challenge it. We've never fought against the oldest dragons in the MM, but we never felt like we were missing fun because we were fighting "only" huge or gargantuan dragons

This is just to say that there are some groups (us) which don't even reach 20th level for our own reasons (practical, not theoretical). Everything published with a CR higher than 24-25 at best is something we'll probably never use, at least for many more years. Everything lower makes us potential buyers of the book.

I think that all of us have the habit of thinking that everything published by WotC is RULE, that we can choose not to use something but if we use it it must be as they published it. Well we don't play for WotC, we play for ourselves! I am *glad* if WotC publishes the same thing in 2 or more versions (such as these Demon Lords, you can still use the BoVD stronger versions with some adjustments if you want them 3.5), and it's up to us to choose which. Furthermore, it's always easier to advance something rather than downgrade it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Tell it to the party of four Balors.

What's the ECL of a Balor? 28? 35?

CR /= ECL