Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Starman]

Space considerations aside, why not do something similar to Amber Diceless in its presentations of the main characters of the novels?

That is, two or three versions of different power levels and possible abilities based on story and legend. .

So you could have (for example):

Demogorgon - Lovecraftian Abomination from Beyond the Stars version (CR 50)
Demogorgon - Liege of the Death Knights version (CR 30)
Demogorgon - Demon Lord of Apes version (CR 25)

I think that would be an ideal solution but, as you mentioned space is a consideration. I'm sure time is another. Statting up creatures of that level is time consuming. The other problem is that there would still be complaining. Someone would be unhappy that they didn't get the CR 47 (or the CR 163 or whatever) version of Demogorgon that they wanted.

 

[BronzeGolem]

I think that would be an ideal solution but, as you mentioned space is a consideration. I'm sure time is another. Statting up creatures of that level is time consuming. The other problem is that there would still be complaining. Someone would be unhappy that they didn't get the CR 47 (or the CR 163 or whatever) version of Demogorgon that they wanted.

Actually, I wouldn't be particularly dissatisfied with that. At least one statted version of Demogorgon in that view would be capable of "holding its own" against all comers, much less what would happen if Demogorgon went up against a deity. My problem is with the idea of a CR 2X Demogorgon as a base (much less a CR 19 Juiblex), and then making how I envision Demogorgon and other Demon Lords basically marginal at the expense, as GVDammerung stated it, of the story.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Space considerations aside, why not do something similar to Amber Diceless in its presentations of the main characters of the novels?

That is, two or three versions of different power levels and possible abilities based on story and legend. .

So you could have (for example):

Demogorgon - Lovecraftian Abomination from Beyond the Stars version (CR 50)
Demogorgon - Liege of the Death Knights version (CR 30)
Demogorgon - Demon Lord of Apes version (CR 25)

That would have added pages to this uber slim tome! Come on! $30 for 160 pages. If anyone hasn't noticed, the WotC books have been maintaining price while losing page count. This is what I call hidden inflation. Not only that, there has been a big drop in the quality of what is being presented to us. If WotC were ever trying to cash in, the time seem to be now.

If they would have increased the price by $10 and added 50 pages, I would be happy to pick it up if they did something like above. As it is I passing on it now. They money will go toward something good, like Ptolus.

 

[Giygasfan]

Space considerations aside, why not do something similar to Amber Diceless in its presentations of the main characters of the novels?

That is, two or three versions of different power levels and possible abilities based on story and legend. .

So you could have (for example):

Demogorgon - Lovecraftian Abomination from Beyond the Stars version (CR 50)
Demogorgon - Liege of the Death Knights version (CR 30)
Demogorgon - Demon Lord of Apes version (CR 25)

this would be a great Idea, although I would make the CRs more spread out.

Something like:


Demogorgon - Powerful demon Lord (CR 25)

Demogorgon - Prince of Demons (CR 45)

Demgorgon - eternal corrupter, ravager of worlds, the Demiurge. (CR 90)

that way, those who want their level 20 party to fight him could (with a little prep). Those who want him Demigod level and possible beatable by the strongest of mortals could use him. And those, like me, who want him capable af beating down most gods can also use him.

 

[Psion]

That would have added pages to this uber slim tome! Come on! $30 for 160 pages. If anyone hasn't noticed, the WotC books have been maintaining price while losing page count.

Yep.

Stuff has already been discussed that had to be culled from the book as it is.

 

[Starman]

Actually, I wouldn't be particularly dissatisfied with that.

Trust me. Someone would.

 

[Uder]

Hi guys,

Some people has already said similar stuff, but can I join the fun?

Forget about Balor for a moment. Let’s presume 20th Level is the max, and no character exists beyond that level. Let’s say PC should have a chance to defeat a Demon Lord at the end of the campaign.

Isn’t CR19-23, still bit low?

Assuming the CR system works as stated in DMG;
A 4-men party of 20th levels should be able to defeat EL20 easily.
An equivalent EL is 24, right?

An 8-men party should have a chance against EL26, right?

So, wouldn’t CR24-26+, be more appropriate for this purpose?

Assuming they are killable opponents, they are at least suppose to be “super-bosses” of the campaign/world, aren’t they?
So give the PC’s some cheesy help. An artifact, or even one per character. Celestial buddies. It’s the climax of the campaign, the fight of century, right?
Or is it suppose to be just a routine, the opponent of the day?

If it's the climax of such a campaign, with those specific circumstances, it seems like your DM might have fun spending an hour advancing the final boss to customize him to the challenge of the players.

Also, when you factor in the demon's retinue (he's not in a room just holding a pie, right?), the game provides the tools to make a fun encounter at an appropriate EL.

 

[Uder]

Mentioning that in the fluff text is fine, but if it#s not an ability written in their stat blocks they simply do not have these abilities.

Yes. And if the stats don't match the fluff the metasetting falls apart

Let it fall.

 

[Shade]

Let it fall.

You do realize that if there wasn't a metasetting, there wouldn't be any demon lords and no Fiendish Codex, right?

 

[Psion]

You do realize that if there wasn't a metasetting, there wouldn't be any demon lords and no Fiendish Codex, right?

I've not noticed my books crumbling... or my campaign... with the publication of this book.