Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[GVDammerung]

But the metasetting is not stable. Things like the "gith-gith-ith hate" triangle are pretty basic and consistent, but details vary. Like the aforementioned changes in the history and power of the Githyanki queen. There comes a time where, if you are plugging into the metasetting, you have to decide what's worth using in your game and what is not, and which of various contradictory versions apply.

Absolutely. That does not, however, excuse or sanction a willy-nilly approach to the metasetting. Ideally, we would have a fair consistency, perhaps not excluding varying interpretations, but at least trying to rationalize or explain them within the metasetting. And it will always be a case of whose ox is boring gored at the moment.

In the present case, we have a rather largish departure from historic treatments and no metasetting explaination provided. We are asked, essentially, to accept the change and act like "it has always been that way." This approach has been tried before (memorably with Dark Sun and the Realms) and always fails, and always draws the ire of those invested in the particulars. Wotc should literally have known better. The response is as predictable as it is natural. The "why" looms large for those invested. "Because we say so or think it best" by itself is not a sufficient answer.

We will all live, of course. The book will still do well. Parts of it will, however, be largely useless to or ignored or be regarded as a "project" by many. That this involves the demon princes is, IMO, a shame. D&D's mythology just took a hit and lost an opportunity to one degree or another.

It could be worse. In Greyhawk, the goddess WeeJas has undergone 6 distinct unexplained redefinations until her stats are now all but meaningless. I would hate to see the demon princes be treated so cavalierly or start to go down that road.

 

[Uder]

Not at all. It doesn't require recalculating his skill points, ability scores, and feats, for one thing. Or his caster level or any of the other things hit dice might affect. It's just adding a bunch of spell-like abilities.

Since Juiblex didn't have skill points, ability scores or feats in 1e, that would be difficult.

So anyway... taking a monster and adding power to it in one system is not at all like taking a monster and adding power to it in another system? I begin to see where you're coming from.

And it was official, not presented as an option.

It was optional. Trust me.

 

[Ripzerai]

Since Juiblex didn't have skill points, ability scores or feats in 1e, that would be difficult.

Exactly. So it was quite a different experience.

So anyway... taking a monster and adding power to it in one system is not at all like taking a monster and adding power to it in another system?

No, for the reasons I gave. It took absolutely no effort in the older system, and takes quite a lot of effort in the present system. And it was an "official" rule change in the older system, while here it's, "If you want, you can spend an hour or so calculating skill points and end up with a stronger monster."

Which is quite irrelevant, because I'm arguing narrowly about how I feel about the by-the-book version in the present day.

It was optional. Trust me.

No more so than Juiblex's base stats. If everything is optional (and, of course, it is) your point becomes meaningless. Not that referencing a set of stats from the '70s (which immediately changed in 1980) is a very meaningful point in any case.

 

[Uder]

No more so than Juiblex's base stats. If everything is optional (and, of course, it is) your point becomes meaningless. Not that referencing a set of stats from the '70s (which immediately changed in 1980) is a very meaningful point in any case.

It was optional because the added powers were presented in a non-core book that came out 8 years (not in '80, but in '85 or '86 IIRC) after the original official stats.

Manual of the Planes added a lot of great stuff for the DM to use. Taking the demon princes out of the DM's stable of monsters and putting them into the DM's plot device pasture was not great stuff.

As for the whole deal, this thread, the other and the dozens yet to come, it's done. It's in the can. WotC has erred on the side of fun and playability, which warms my heart. I'm glad they've reversed direction on this in favor of providing info that is usable at the table. A few self-proclaimed experts are less so now*, but oh well.

*As an aside, somewhere yesterday I actually saw someone bemoaning the fact that this would interfere with their "education" of the "kiddies" on the message boards... woah! There's someone who takes their place in the message-board game seriously!

 

[Ripzerai]

It was optional because the added powers were presented in a non-core book that came out 8 years (not in '80, but in '85 or '86 IIRC) after the original official stats.

The "core" terminology is a new invention.

And that was just one example, anyway. Deities & Demigods also added a bunch of powers that would turn the tides of battle between a god and just about any non-god.

Of course, everything is optional, but if you believe Gygax's introduction to the book, "Deities & Demigods is an indispensible part of the whole of AD&D. Do not fall into the error of regarding it as a supplement. It is integral to Dungeon Mastering a true AD&D campaign."

Some of what Deities & Demigods gave Juiblex include the ability to cast Command instantaneously and at will, with no saving throw, and to cast Gate, Geas, and Quest, to teleport without error at will, and a host of undefined powers to be used as the DM saw fit, including possibly the power to teleport anyone else anywhere, without error, at will.

And all that back in 1980.

 

[Uder]

The "core" terminology is a new invention.

The word, yes, but not the idea. Back then we called it "We only use book a,b,c, with a little of x,y, and z".

Of course, everything is optional, but if you believe Gygax's introduction to the book, "Deities & Demigods is an indispensible part of the whole of AD&D. Do not fall into the error of regarding it as a supplement. It is integral to Dungeon Mastering a true AD&D campaign."

And EGG is very well known for the soft sell... weren't you supposed to only use official hexagon paper, or you weren't truly playing AD&D?

Turn the page to find "...everything contained within this book is guidelines, not rules. DDG is an aid for the DM, not instructions. We would not presume to tell a Dungeon Master how to set up his or her campaign's religious system."

So yeah, I guess we can agree they had their cake and ate it too.

Really, though, if he considered the addition of such powers to demon lords and archdevils so indispensible, why not include them for the big bads included in Monster Manual II? Perhaps then, as now, unassailable badguys didn't prove popular with the player base. I'm not psychic, so I have to wonder if they were popular with EGG himself or those in his circle of players. Certainly adding such powers to these beings makes the deeds of Zagyg, Erac's Cousin, Robilar and others seem impossible... at least if they truly did occur at the table and weren't "dressed up" for publication.

And yes, later in DDG they suggest adding a short list of generic deific powers to many monsters in the MM and Fiend Folio, but off the top of my head the idea wasn't followed through in any other books until the Manual of the Planes (where the caveat is given that these divine abilities should only work on the devils' or demons' home planes). Why do you suppose the idea was dropped until after EGG had left the fold?

 

[Psion]

In the present case, we have a rather largish departure from historic treatments and no metasetting explaination provided.

Once again, the problem is that people are taking the CRs as metasetting gospel.

Given that the demonomicon articles are pegging the demon lords in the CR28-32 range and scaling guidelines explicitly exist in the book, I think that's a mistake of thinking.

The metasetting part is the fluff. The stats are tools.

We are asked, essentially, to accept the change and act like "it has always been that way."

No. You are being asked to do YOUR setting YOUR way and accept that different people do their campaign differently.

 

[BogusMagus]

Hi guys,

Some people has already said similar stuff, but can I join the fun?

Forget about Balor for a moment. Let’s presume 20th Level is the max, and no character exists beyond that level. Let’s say PC should have a chance to defeat a Demon Lord at the end of the campaign.

Isn’t CR19-23, still bit low?

Assuming the CR system works as stated in DMG;
A 4-men party of 20th levels should be able to defeat EL20 easily.
An equivalent EL is 24, right?

An 8-men party should have a chance against EL26, right?

So, wouldn’t CR24-26+, be more appropriate for this purpose?

Assuming they are killable opponents, they are at least suppose to be “super-bosses” of the campaign/world, aren’t they?
So give the PC’s some cheesy help. An artifact, or even one per character. Celestial buddies. It’s the climax of the campaign, the fight of century, right?
Or is it suppose to be just a routine, the opponent of the day?

(BTW, my preference would be: Demon Lords to be Deity-equivalent, at least on their home turf. And their Aspects/Avatars/Manifestations on other Planes, defeatable.)

 

[Giygasfan]

Forget about Balor for a moment. Let’s presume 20th Level is the max, and no character exists beyond that level. Let’s say PC should have a chance to defeat a Demon Lord at the end of the campaign.

Isn’t CR19-23, still bit low?

Assuming the CR system works as stated in DMG;
A 4-men party of 20th levels should be able to defeat EL20 easily.
An equivalent EL is 24, right?

An 8-men party should have a chance against EL26, right?

So, wouldn’t CR24-26+, be more appropriate for this purpose?

Assuming they are killable opponents, they are at least suppose to be “super-bosses” of the campaign/world, aren’t they?
So give the PC’s some cheesy help. An artifact, or even one per character. Celestial buddies. It’s the climax of the campaign, the fight of century, right?
Or is it suppose to be just a routine, the opponent of the day?

(BTW, my preference would be: Demon Lords to be Deity-equivalent, at least on their home turf. And their Aspects/Avatars/Manifestations on other Planes, defeatable.)

See, this would at least be slightly sensible, and WotC wouldn't want that. next up, they'll be remaking the tarrsque as CR5 so people who "don't like high level play" can use it.

I still mantain they should be DF level of power. I've had fun campiagns at that power level before. most of the PCs were gods or god level strength, but that only added to the roleplaying as while as power level. If you want your PCs to take on Orcus, make them god strength, you can still have a good campaign.

 

[Shade]

Hi guys,

Some people has already said similar stuff, but can I join the fun?

Forget about Balor for a moment. Let’s presume 20th Level is the max, and no character exists beyond that level. Let’s say PC should have a chance to defeat a Demon Lord at the end of the campaign.

Isn’t CR19-23, still bit low?

Assuming the CR system works as stated in DMG;
A 4-men party of 20th levels should be able to defeat EL20 easily.
An equivalent EL is 24, right?

An 8-men party should have a chance against EL26, right?

So, wouldn’t CR24-26+, be more appropriate for this purpose?

Assuming they are killable opponents, they are at least suppose to be “super-bosses” of the campaign/world, aren’t they?
So give the PC’s some cheesy help. An artifact, or even one per character. Celestial buddies. It’s the climax of the campaign, the fight of century, right?
Or is it suppose to be just a routine, the opponent of the day?

(BTW, my preference would be: Demon Lords to be Deity-equivalent, at least on their home turf. And their Aspects/Avatars/Manifestations on other Planes, defeatable.)

Yes, you are absolutely correct. At CR 20, the archfiend should only tap about 20% of a standard party of four's resources. They can then proceed to tne next rooms and drop a few more.