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I never made a bad, wrong, good type of statement in the whole discussion. So we agree. We also agree on this.

I define genres by their central high conceptual themes, woldview, values and morals. I try to make trappings and tropes not that relevant in defining them. That is why I think that, while old D&D had elves, dwarves, hobbits and clerics, it was still very strong on the S&S genre.

So what would this cartoon be then? A new genre? It certainly does not share the same theme of the Conan novels. It's themes are closer to High Fantasy, even though it does not share it's common tropes. I think that by your definition of genre, each author is nearly a genre of it's own.

Here is Conan turned into High Fantasy, as an example that the common tropes of the genre are not what define it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wqlqy82Snk&feature=related

I didn't analyse the list so profoundly. It is just a guideline, one can disagree on some of it's inclusions.

Remathilis: so we basically agree. D&D changed with the taste of the majority. And that is basically my point.

To some, proof offered never seems to be enough. I have done what time and energy allowed me. You can continue your research on your own and draw your own conclusions.

Krensky: I am not saying that D&D was born as a pure pure S&S game. It did have lots of conflicting influences. But the S&S influence was strong. Or at least stronger than that which is today.

I don't say that D&D was born as a pure pure S&S game. It did have lots of conflicting influences. But the S&S influence was strong. Or at least stronger than that which is today.

I can agree with you on that. It quite the same thing I'm saying, using different names for the categories.

Yes you said it, and I answered above as well. Generally, the most authentic interpretation of a game, is the one of it's author. That's why his opinions are more relevant towards understanding "what the game was supposed to be". Yes, people played D&D as they wanted, and there is nothing...

The evidence lies on the sources of inspiration Gary used, and the ones used currently. EGG numerous times said he was much more inspired by S&S. That the Tolkien influences were just superficial, cosmetic. To make the game sell better. He said this A LOT. He even called Tokien's masterpiece...

This indeed another major factor of change in the history of D&D. I agree. But many many player's don't play in RPGA, and I think their main source of frustration with the older editions, is that they wanted their game to be more like a High Fantasy novel, rather than a Sword & Sorcery one...

I think you are confusing "gods" in lowe-case, with God with capital letter. In High Fantasy, a cosmological higher force of good will not let evil triumph. That is based on the Christian God. The gods from the novels are not Gods in the way modern theology and philosophy interpret the concept...

This is quite a fair list: List of high fantasy fiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think this is just a matter of subjective preference. You can't say that HF is better for gaming as an objective truth. IMO, as I said above, individuality is not an essential characteristic of the genre.

Well, if you read boards and blog often, and even the 4E rulebooks, you'll notice that many people don't think you can freely ignore those prescriptions. What I have tried to identify is "where does that come from?". I believe it comes from people trying to make the game look more like a high...

Yes. As I have stated before, both styles, HF or S&S, taken to the extreme are unplayable. So it's all about a general orientation or principles, that can have their exceptions to keep the game playable. EDIT: But notice how there is a general idea that in 4E the players can DEMAND that...

Well, JRR Tolkien did say: J. R. R. Tolkien - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia According to Catholicism, even though God respects human liberty, good will always finally triumph over evil. In fact, evil has already been defeated by Christ on the Cross. So yes... you could read that Sauron's...

I want to encapsulate the thesis of my article as briefly as possible: A lot of the changes in D&D during the course of it's history can be explained by the conflict between two fantasy genres that are based on diametrically opposed world-views: High Fantasy vs. Sword & Sorcery. The game...