• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

Even in a game world which is tilted in the player's favour, I like my PC's survival to be the result of some ingenuity on my part and some Indiana Jones-style heroism by the character. Regardless of the world style (S&S, HF, EF etc), this was the formula of D&D all the way up to 3.5 core.

A 4E campaign, OTOH, assumes a party of X-Men, far superior to the commoners, cleaving through hordes of foes and threatened only by the strongest of enemies. I cannot identify with such characters, and they seem more like playing pieces than protagonists I want to weave a story with.

I think you might want to check out the MM1 and MM2 with regard to the rest of humanity...

A 5th level PC in pre 3e was pretty much stomping the entire town's guard and could pretty much slap around the king's knights etc since they were generally assumed to be non-adventurers and thus 0th level PCs.

The 4e PC will be humiliated if he tries that trick anytime in 4e....The baseline assumption of humanity for example is WAY higher than ever before...Even if you're not a "special little snowflake, a.k.a crazy as all a.k.a the adventurer", a 4e non-adventurer is still expected to be tougher than the riff raff farmer peasant...

If anything, 4e is the one edition where the PCs are definitely not anything special...
 

log in or register to remove this ad


That list includes Erikson's Book of the Malazan and Martin's Song of Ice and Fire; by your definition, that means "god" is on the side of the righteous and goodly in those books, and "good" is destined to win. From what I've read of the two series (only two books of Erikson's, but all of Martin's), that's pretty clearly not the case. The "gods" are either absent (in SoIaF) or are at best morally ambivalent (Malazan), and the "good guys" are not destined to win, and aren't always particularly "good" anyways.

So, either those books aren't high fantasy, or your definitions are flawed. Personally, I don't agree with your definitions.
 


So, either those books aren't high fantasy, or your definitions are flawed. Personally, I don't agree with your definitions.

I didn't analyse the list so profoundly. It is just a guideline, one can disagree on some of it's inclusions.
 

I think the genre divide is not just coincidence, but also not the fundamental reason for conflict and change. "Story first" seems to me more basic, a view that one can have regardless of what (if any) genre fiction one has read.

Just as we can identify precursors of D&D, we can find precursors of Hickman's work. There's a period of relatively unrecognized experiments, and then -- a paradigm-shifting product. Dragonlance was that for "story first" in D&D, and thus (because D&D was most visible) for the RPG hobby.

Now (as demonstrated in at least one earlier post in this thread), some people even consider the approach definitive of RPGs. The original "role-playing" concept has in some quarters been supplanted with an essentially theatrical one.

Once a former innovation has become the long-standing norm, it can be easy to forget that there was a time before it.

Coming from ordinary wargames, one found in D&D something distinctively different. Seeing things from the perspective of one's playing piece was not just a small part of the game -- it was the game. Here you are; what will you do? No army to command, no set victory condition, no limit to the field of operations ... no end, really, to the game at which point one could be said definitively to have won or lost. One could indefinitely keep rolling up new characters via which to explore the worlds of adventure.

That was not something one would expect, much less take for granted; it was a revelation. (I refer here both to personal experience and to many, many accounts of others.)

The "story first" game -- as distinct from the "emergent story" game of D&D -- was also revolutionary. It was not what one would expect, because there was no previous experience that would lead one to expect it, any more than one would expect a "plot line" in Risk.

Indeed, that there was no predetermined outcome was definitive of a game. "White to mate in three moves" was for puzzles, and looking up the solution was not what those were about; it was the resort when one gave up on "playing with" a problem.

I see the methodology of those "plotted" D&D scenarios, which seemed to become very common in the 2E era (in modules, if not in Dungeon magazine), as flawed. There's nothing, of course, to keep other people from finding it quite satisfactory.

To my mind, a design that integrates the "narrative control" concept as part of the game is better than one that subverts the game. When a "good game" requires breaking the rules, I think it's time to change the rules.

In any case, "story first" and "role-playing with emergent story" are rather at odds with each other. I think that is the real underlying reason for conflict and change in D&D.
 

To my mind, a design that integrates the "narrative control" concept as part of the game is better than one that subverts the game. When a "good game" requires breaking the rules, I think it's time to change the rules.
That's very much the Forge position. I see it as being a reaction to the 90s, the era of 2e and Vampire, systems that promoted storytelling in the GM's advice section but the rules were simulationist.
 

There's a middle position of emergent story with presumed protagonists. It may be unknown just what dramatic arc the story of "the heroes" will take -- but it's not going to end in "meaningless" deaths at the toss of a die, because otherwise they would not properly be "the heroes of the story".
 

Also, it can (at least for me) depend on theme. For instance, having narrative control as a player would probably spoil Call of Cthulhu for me.
 

Also, it can (at least for me) depend on theme. For instance, having narrative control as a player would probably spoil Call of Cthulhu for me.

It depends how it's implemented and what you're defining as narrative control. Dread, for instance, fits some definitions of narrative control, and I understand it would work quite well for Lovecraft.
 

Earlier, Doug McCrae mentioned the Giants series -- "the first adventure path." Are those adventures High Fantasy or Sword & Sorcery? Do they represent a story first outlook or an emergent story outlook?
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top