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You didn't address the point here. SWSE also didn't have OTHER game mechanics which leaned on the presumption of surges. If I use 3.5 Healing, I've only touched the first use of HS. All the others remain.

I think that is what I said in the last sentence. It is just that I don't want a "math works" system. So I don't want the 4E chassis. There are lots of things about 4E that don't bother me at all. But the things that make 4E be 4E tend to be going the wrong direction for a game I like.

Yes, but SWSE doesn't have class abilities and other mechanics which presume healing surges. Surges are not just packets of healing, they are resources which are available within the game. So you can't just point to SWSE. But, that said, I do agree that there is nothing stopping you from...

agreed. Which is why it is a good idea to not go around casually saying it is ok to disagree when it might need to be backed up.

Right. And this seems to be the recurring theme. (Well, that plus some people find it easy to say it is OK to disagree until they are asked to say it is OK for somebody to disagree with them :) )

I don't think this would be all that easy. I was certainly encourage that this is what I should do back before 5E was announced. Things like +1/2 level and healing surges are deeply baked into the foundations of 4E. You could take them out. But by the time you are done you will have a wonky...

You may be hitting the root of things. It kinda feels like the specification of "powers" is a debate gimmick. In actual play you don't parse out things like "my class" vs "my class' powers". You just play. People complain a lot about the endless +3 to a skill feats in 3X. I think that would...

Not at all hard to imagine. It certainly cuts both ways.

You know I gotta chuckle at your choice of phrase here. And, no, I don't think this is a gotcha. But it is amusing.

Ok, but, again, I have absolutely ZERO beef with anything that is "to you" or any other individual. It should not keep coming back to that. The issue is: is this true to some set of people who may otherwise have been 4E players. The answer is yes. shrug If you perceive it this way, then...

But, again, it IS. It may not be to YOU. But you can't have it both ways and say on the one hand that it is unfair to complain about 4E's saminess because 5E has it in the same measure and then turn around and say 4E doesn't have it. I agree with you that some of that CAN be found in 5E...

Sorry, when the thread is themed on rejection of an opinion as hold as a valid opinion, the tone may follow. I'm shocked that so much self contradiction can pass without a batted eye and yet taking umbrage at the positions firmly taken (whether in the OP or just subsequent) is intolerable. It...

sorry odd double post

Well, at least I did read what you said. And I noted your contradictions. You have stated that we can agree to disagree and then steadfastly refused to do exactly that.

It is all relative. You can go on all day about how completely different a fireball is compared to swinging a sword and having this or that completely un-fire-related special rider ability tied to said sword swing. And you would be right. But EVERY RPG (at least of those running for "being...

(y) I appreciate this post. I've been observing the lack of anything like this. We don't have to agree on all the details. If we can just get to "yep, that position is fair enough, even if I completely disagree", then that is all there is to it.

Fair to say then that 5E and 4E are interchangible? Why don't we just all play 5E and then there is no need for this thread? IMO that sells both games very short. I think they both have things they bring "to the table" that the other lacks.

I'm the one being told my opinions are not valid. Since you stepped in, do you care to answer? I don't like 4E. I get it. I understand it. I don't care either way about presentation. I don't like it. Is that OK with you? In case you missed all the times I said it already, I love that...

Certainly. Again, it doesn't even matter how much good you say about 4E along the way. If you complain you are not just someone with wrong opinions, you are a bad person with wrong opinions. :)

The persistence is the face of such easy to point out self-contradiction and lack of logic is certainly impressive.