D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

There's a reason you never seen anyone use aid attack/defense in 4e.

Nods there were feats and I think paragon paths? that enhanced that so it wasn't always a bust, also my martial practice Battlesigns gives it range for anyone in the party (meaning even if you arent close enough to attack you can help an ally), but tactically out of the box was a poor choice
until there was something enhancing it.
Which really is kind of like some of those 5e ones may not be great on their own if its taking all your action but is alright situationally alongside an extra attack. Ie extra attack is secret sauce (for some 5e everyman abilities) one could even call it a class ability enhancing another lack luster power.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

wait waste something you get every time there is a conflict??????

Oh, forget it. Not the hill I wanna die on.

 

[FrogReaver]

Nods there were feats and I think paragon paths? that enhanced that so it wasn't always a bust, also my martial practice Battlesigns gives it range for anyone in the party (meaning even if you arent close enough to attack you can help an ally), but tactically out of the box was a poor choice
until there was something enhancing it.

Sure. Thanks for at least acknowlding the base case. In a game like 4e something it's worth noting that there was always something that enhanced a basic action or at-will power. Gives enough fodder for people that don't want to talk general cases for the game. But there is a general base case.

Which really is kind of like some of those 5e ones may not be great on their own if its taking all your action but is alright situationally alongside an extra attack. Ie extra attack is secret sauce (for some 5e everyman abilities) one could even call it a class ability enhancing another lack luster power.

Yep - it's important to remember that most fighter at will 4e attacks can be replicated using 5e extra attack and grapple/shove/prone - prone being even more impressive as it's much more potent in 5e than 4e.

 

[BryonD]

Healing surges are very easy to strip out. You're using the 4E engine to duplicate say 3E. The classes and roles aren't part of that engine.

You do use the 4E round structure, and skull system but you don't have to use the 4E skill list. You can also change the numbers for example you add a bit of bounded accuracy. If you're proficient you get a plus 3 bonus instead of 5.

SWSE used the 4E engine, no healing surges in sight, different skill list.

You could have 3.5 classes and spells ported as written and due to the way saves scale is in 4E vs 3.5 that would help a lot with save or sucks. You could trim the 3.5 spell list and cut out the worst 10%bif the spells.

Yes, but SWSE doesn't have class abilities and other mechanics which presume healing surges. Surges are not just packets of healing, they are resources which are available within the game. So you can't just point to SWSE.

But, that said, I do agree that there is nothing stopping you from doing it and I'm sure with enough effort you could get there.

But, and this is PURELY speaking for myself here, why take a game that was built "wrong" and beat it into submission, when you can just play a game that wasn't built wrong in the first place? It would be easier to plug the 4E parts I did want into 3E than to salvage 4E.

 

[Garthanos]

What pertinent 4e things were left off that you actually seen used occasionally?

Think I mentioned already the very frequent Charges, and there is Action Points, and Second Wind (Dwarves and Dragonborn particularly - but in desperation others too)
I am frequently doing Human with 3 at wills though it is the exception i like lots of options.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, but SWSE doesn't have class abilities and other mechanics which presume healing surges. Surges are not just packets of healing, they are resources which are available within the game. So you can't just point to SWSE.

But, that said, I do agree that there is nothing stopping you from doing it and I'm sure with enough effort you could get there.

But, and this is PURELY speaking for myself here, why take a game that was built "wrong" and beat it into submission, when you can just play a game that wasn't built wrong in the first place? It would be easier to plug the 4E parts I did want into 3E than to salvage 4E.

You're thinking wrong. You're not using 4E engine to improve 4E, you're using it to build whatever game you like.

Classes, roles, magic items etc can all be stripped out. That's all modular. You don't even need to use 4E classes.

The engine is the round structure, NADs, skill system etc. It just depends on what genre you're doing and how much rewriting you want to do.

Hell 3.5 redone with the 4E engine would be an improvement and you wouldn't even need to rewrite much except the stat blocks and skills.

 

[Garthanos]

You're thinking wrong. You're not using 4E engine to improve 4E, you're using it to build whatever game you like.

Classes, roles, magic items etc can all be stripped out. That's all modular. You don't even need to use 4E classes.

The engine is the round structure, NADs, skill system etc. It just depends on what genre you're doing and how much rewriting you want to do.

HS are useful in 4e in many places besides healing they are explicitly mentioned as a resource to gain a full on success in a skill challenge and fuel martial practices. Pay the surge get a big significant to the story skill driven success. Useful even without the same classes etc. indeed.

 

[FrogReaver]

Think I mentioned already the very frequent Charges, and there is Action Points, and Second Wind (Dwarves and Dragonborn particularly - but in desperation others too)
I am frequently doing Human with 3 at wills though it is the exception i like lots of options.

Yea 2nd Wind is a good callout - useful encounter power at times. I recall charge being distinct - damage bonus when you ran in a straight line at them or something. I'd count it as a meaningful at-will power.

 

[Zardnaar]

HS are useful in 4e in many places besides healing they are explicitly mentioned as a resource to gain a full on success in a skill challenge and fuel martial practices. Pay the surge get a big significant to the story skill driven success. Useful even without the same classes etc. indeed.

You can strip them out. Replace them with 3.5 healing (level per day), or even OSR 1-3 hp.

SWSE didn't have a healing surges in sight. You got a single second wind, could get another via a feat iirc and another as a class option. Most characters have 1.

 

[Garthanos]

Yep - it's important to remember that most fighter at will 4e attacks can be replicated using 5e extra attack and grapple/shove/prone - prone being even more impressive as it's much more potent in 5e than 4e.

Seems like so many things based on advantage that it might be a wash often too however.