D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Teemu]

A 5e Battlemaster fighter at level 3 has:

At Will: Duelist Fighting Style Attack
Str or Dex vs AC
Requirement: 1 Handed Weapon and no weapon in the other hand
1W+mod+2 damage

At Will: Help
Effect: Ally gains advantage

At Will: Push Attack
Str or Dex vs AC
Effect: You push the enemy 1 space

At Will: Prone Attack
Str vs Fort
Effect: You prone the enemy

At Will: Grapple
Str vs Fort or Reflex
Effect: You grapple the enemy

Utility Encounter: 2nd Wind
Effect: Heal 1d10+fighter level hp

Utility Encounter: Action Surge
Effect: Gain an extra action

Encounter: BattleMaster Manuever 1 - *Reliable
Str or dex vs AC
2W+mod+2 + prone (save to avoid)

Encounter: BattleMaster Manuever 2 - *Reliable
Str or dex vs AC
2W+mod+2 + prone (save to avoid)

Encounter: BattleMaster Manuever 3 - *Reliable
Str or dex vs AC
2W+mod+2 + prone (save to avoid)

Encounter: BattleMaster Manuever 4 - *Reliable
Str or dex vs AC
2W+mod+2 + prone (save to avoid)

That's 5 at will's and 4 encounter powers and 2 utility powers by 3rd level.

In 4e you would have 2 at wills, 2 encounters, 1 daily and 1 utility by level 3. (and 1 additional at will power for marking I suppose)

I think 5e's natural language hides a lot of 4e style options that become readily apparent when put side by side in 4e's presentation.

That's quite the framing.

A 4e weaponmaster fighter has 2 class at-will attack powers, plus the fighter feature at-will attack Combat Challenge, which triggers off marked enemies. In addition, they have the following actions:

• Second Wind (encounter)
• Action Point (every other encounter)
• Aid Another [skill] (at-will)
• Aid Attack (at-will)
• Aid Defense (at-will)
• Basic Attack (at-will)
• Bull Rush (at-will)
• Charge (at-will) [move and attack with one action]
• Coup de Grace (at-will)
• Crawl (at-will)
• Delay (at-will)
• Drop Prone (at-will)
• Escape (at-will)
• Grab (at-will)
• Opportunity Attack (at-will)
• Ready an Action (at-will)
• Run (at-will)
• Shift (at-will)
• Squeeze (at-will)
• Total Defense (at-will)

If you're going to list the 5e basic actions available to all, why wouldn't you do the same for the 4e fighter?

 

[Garthanos]

Boy do I wish that 5e clerics weren't just Laser Clerics and Heavy Clerics. I would have loved for Clerics to have absorbed 4e Avenger and Invoker into a domain or three. Or at least as aspects of the paladin.

There is a good one with distinctions inherent in the powers.
I loved malediction invokers the paying a price for my power angle plastered all over their powers was exquisite a wonderful tool for making a witch actually.

But I am fine with many distinctions coming in from feats too more.
it is a holistic experience not a glance at books and read independently thing.

My swordmages at-wills set me up for a White Lotus riposte picture his aura pulsing with the energy from his at-will and releasing it when he is subsequently attacked.

I also used another feat that allowed when i had encounter powers in mind my at-wills were weaker (normal) but when my mind was clearer they were enhanced. Feats are obviously part of how you made powers distinct too. There were many which did just that.

A fighter using Brash strike is shifting his balance towards a Striker damage and its not a class feature its a power and a dynamic.

A feat that changes a cleave into ongoing damage if you have no extra enemy a very sweet.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's quite the framing.

A 4e weaponmaster fighter has 2 class at-will attack powers, plus the fighter feature at-will attack Combat Challenge, which triggers off marked enemies. In addition, they have the following actions:

• Second Wind (encounter)
• Action Point (every other encounter)
• Aid Another [skill] (at-will)
• Aid Attack (at-will)
• Aid Defense (at-will)
• Basic Attack (at-will)
• Bull Rush (at-will)
• Charge (at-will) [move and attack with one action]
• Coup de Grace (at-will)
• Crawl (at-will)
• Delay (at-will)
• Drop Prone (at-will)
• Escape (at-will)
• Grab (at-will)
• Opportunity Attack (at-will)
• Ready an Action (at-will)
• Run (at-will)
• Shift (at-will)
• Squeeze (at-will)
• Total Defense (at-will)

If you're going to list the 5e basic actions available to all, why wouldn't you do the same for the 4e fighter?

I didn't list all the 5e actions.

 

[Garthanos]

That's quite the framing.
If you're going to list the 5e basic actions available to all, why wouldn't you do the same for the 4e fighter?

Sure I called him on it but his intent was to show 5e has some good stuff for the fighter too it came off as an unfair comparison because very pertinent 4e things were left off; But his point was some of it is hidden in less obvious presentation in 5e too.(or that is my take on it)

 

[Teemu]

I didn't list all the 5e actions.

No, you didn’t, but you did list actions like shove, help, and grapple as the 5e fighter’s options, yet framed it as if the 4e fighter only had 2 at-will options when they also can grab, aid attack/defense, and bull rush (among others).

 

[FrogReaver]

No, you didn’t, but you did list actions like shove, help, and grapple as the 5e fighter’s options, yet framed it as if the 4e fighter only had 2 at-will options when they also can grab, aid attack/defense, and bull rush (among others).

There's a reason you never seen anyone use aid attack/defense in 4e. It was one of the worst abilities in the game. 5e's help isn't very good either - but it's much better than giving up your whole turn for aid attack/defense (which had a chance of making things worse...)

Bull rush wasn't much better but it at least had an occasional tactical use. Giving up your whole turn to push something 5 feet is terrible in all but the most perfect circumstances.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure I called him on it but his intent was to show 5e has some good stuff for the fighter too it came off as an unfair comparison because very pertinent 4e things were left off; But his point was some of it is hidden in less obvious presentation in 5e too.(or that is my take on it)

What pertinent 4e things were left off that you actually seen used occasionaly?

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think this would be all that easy.
I was certainly encourage that this is what I should do back before 5E was announced.

Things like +1/2 level and healing surges are deeply baked into the foundations of 4E. You could take them out. But by the time you are done you will have a wonky thing which was built assuming things that are no longer there. It might be "ok", but there are other great games that it needs to be better than.

Healing surges are very easy to strip out. You're using the 4E engine to duplicate say 3E. The classes and roles aren't part of that engine.

You do use the 4E round structure, and skull system but you don't have to use the 4E skill list. You can also change the numbers for example you add a bit of bounded accuracy. If you're proficient you get a plus 3 bonus instead of 5.

SWSE used the 4E engine, no healing surges in sight, different skill list.

You could have 3.5 classes and spells ported as written and due to the way saves scale is in 4E vs 3.5 that would help a lot with save or sucks. You could trim the 3.5 spell list and cut out the worst 10%bif the spells.

 

[Teemu]

There's a reason you never seen anyone use aid attack/defense in 4e. It was one of the worst abilities in the game. 5e's help isn't very good either - but it's much better than giving up your whole turn for aid attack/defense (which had a chance of making things worse...)

Bull rush wasn't much better but it at least had an occasional tactical use. Giving up your whole turn to push something 5 feet is terrible in all but the most perfect circumstances.

I’ve seen aid attack/defense used, and bull rush, and grab. And I’ve seen their equivalents used in 5e.

Still doesn’t change the fact that the 4e fighter isn’t restricted to 2 at-will powers. The framing in your post was pretty questionable.

 

[FrogReaver]

I’ve seen aid attack/defense used, and bull rush, and grab. And I’ve seen their equivalents used in 5e.

Sorry you had to watch your players use sucky powers even occasionally.

Still doesn’t change the fact that the 4e fighter isn’t restricted to 2 at-will powers. The framing in your post was pretty questionable.

What else is he doing even occasionally other than using his 2 at will powers or one of his encounter or daily powers?