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I directly asked you these questions and you have rejected my requests. I really think you are the one who needs to take a breath. It is OK for someone to not like the game you like. And yet you are taking great umbrage about how my posts don't make your experiences invalid. I have pointed...

I don't think he is claiming that 4E has a big fanbase. Your refutation of that is complete and it would be even more foolish to argue that. For some reason there is this on-going weirdness that 4E diehards must insist that any complaint about it is purely false and can only come from people...

you misspelled my name. But that aside "WHAT???" We are talking about my subjective opinion. Go back and read where OVER and OVER I didn't just acknowledge YOUR opinion, I PRAISED it!!! 4E was awesome at delivery a particular game for a specific subset of the fanbase that is GREAT!!! But...

If you say so. I have no way of knowing what you heard. As I said just above, most people I know that worse of 4E than I did. But, since you are making distinctions, may I infer that perhaps, at least for little me, my personal complaints might not fall within simple presentation? Would you...

I know that when I threw out my list of ways 5E was different, nobody took up the challenge.

OK, clear enough. It is OK to disagree, unless you don't like it. Gotcha. I didn't like 4E. I know many many people who like 4E at less than I did. I literally know of nobody who complained about 4E and could not put words to their complaints which completely contradicting your presumptions...

Do you then agree that this is a legitimate problem that resulted from 4E's design related to people who didn't like it? Or do you agree with the statements here claiming that "folks just couldn't seem to wrap their brains around it ", and "4e made the mistake of trying to organize things...

Oh, I'll totally agree with the word "influences". They are certainly there. The claim I'm disputing is that the things people didn't like in 4E exist in 5E with no meaningful difference beyond "presentation".

Exactly!!!! It is 100% OK. But 1) if it is OK for me to disagree with you then you should not say "100%" in reply to post saying that my view disagreeing with you can't exist. and 2) if it is OK for me to disagree with you then it should be considered absurd for threads like this one to...

Bogus. Easy to say. Impossible to defend. I can, and have, presented a laundry list of my issues from 4E and why 4E fails completely to deliver the playstyle I want. And I've matched that with how 5E is every case either removed that issue or retained it, but in a way that does not anchor it...

OK. well you are bending over backwards here, but so be it.... yeah, ok..... Click me a link then. I know I don't need to work hard to find links for 4E fans being bitter and unfair toward people who didn't share their taste. And another thing you can always find on the internet is someone...

Here is the thing: It doesn't matter one wit if everything you say here is true or not. By your own words, they are different in 4E. Some people like one. Some people like the other. The dividing line for that on 4E was not good for its sustainability as a widely played game.

Can you quote me where you said ANYTHING to suggest that you were stating 3E was attacked unfairly prior to this post? It seems a bit of a serious retcon. But, either way, what have I said that you disagree with?

So what is your point? Let me start by clarifying an important correction of a misrepresentation you made: I said "Nobody is out there complaining that 3X is saddled with the unfair standard/move canard or meme " This would be 3X fans complaining that the people who don't like 3X attack it...

Go back and look at the very first line of my very first reply in this thread. Edit: and PF lasted way past 4E, so I think your meme culture timescale is off. (Though memes certainly existed back then as well, and that is, yet again, a distraction from the point anyway). Edit #2: And...

4E had an awesome design team that nailed the game they set out to make. We can debates the whys forever (it seems we already have), but it turned out that the game they set out to make was not the game that some important fraction of the fanbase wanted. Well done design and design of a great...

Hi Nobody. Two replies. I never said you didn't like 3X. There are a lot of people who don't like 3X. Please point me to the established memes where 3X is called samey because of move standard. "Somebody out there said this" and "this is an annoying persistent meme" are not equivalent...

Shrug. You are going back to the presentation angle. Which, honestly, has a shallow tone to it. I'm talking about how the mechanics play at the table. The phrase "the math works" isn't in the mechanics. It is a statement of game philosophy and it resonates throughout the experience. And...

This seems a really odd comment considering this history of 4E debates. One of the mainstays of these "conversations" was "+ 1/2 level is awesome because it fixes the disconnects between the classes". It went on and on that "every barbarian learns about magic over the course of his career"...

Everything is relative. And I'm not interested in starting at GO on this debate that really came to conclusion years ago. It should not take that much Google-Fu to track down the cases which were made. But, compared to other games against which 4E was competing for players and the demands of a...