D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Neonchameleon]

I said in another thread I'd put some at will first level 4e powers and a list of classes to explain my confusion with the meme that 4e powers are similar between classes. All these are at will powers I've seen on characters, and I think I've removed anything too obvious such as Vicious Mockery from the Bard, or anything from the psionic classes (including the monk) that don't use standard AEDU. All of them I think are pretty clearly associated with one of the classes below (there's only one per class although I have put both Mage and Wizard in there).

• Astral Seal: Target a foe within 25 feet at +2 vs Reflex. On a hit the target takes -2 to all defences until end of next turn and the next ally who hits them heals 2+secondary stat hit points
• Brash Assault: Melee attack vs AC. 1W + Stat damage. Hit or miss the target can make a melee basic attack against you as a free action and they have combat advantage. If they do one of your allies within 25 feet can make a melee or ranged basic attack against them with combat advantage.
• Chaos Bolt: Target a foe within 50ft vs Will. Hit: 1d10 + Stat damage. If your attack roll was even you must make this attack again make a secondary attack against a target within 25ft of your previous target. On a hit d6 vs will and you must attack a new target within 25ft if the attack roll was even. Keep attacking until you run out of targets or roll an odd number.
• Deft Strike: Melee or ranged weapon attack vs AC. You may move up to 10ft before the atttack. On a hit do 1W + Stat damage. [Under 4e rules if you are hidden before an action you don't become unhidden until the end of the whole action - and hiding can be done as part of a move action]
• Eyebite: Target a foe within 50ft vs reflex. On a hit d6+Stat damage and you are invisible to the target until the end of the next turn
• Howl of Fury: Melee weapon attack. Hit: 1W + Stat damage. You then howl a 15ft cone that includes the target. Everyone other than the target in the cone takes thunder damage equal to [Secondary Stat]
• Grappling Strike: Melee weapon attack vs AC. Must have a hand free. Hit: 1W + Stat damage and you grab the foe, automatically ending the grab at end of next turn. With [Subclass] you may use this as an opportunity attack.
• Lightning Lure: Target a foe within 15ft, vs Fortitude. On a hit 1d6+[stat] damage and pull the target to the nearest square adjacent to you.
• Magic Weapon: Melee or ranged weapon attack. Attack: +1 vs AC. Hit: 1W+Stat and each ally adjacent to you gains a +1 bonus to attack, and a [secondary stat] bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn
• Misdirected Mark: Target a foe within 50ft. Hit: 1d8 + Stat damage and the target is marked by an ally within 25ft of you until end of next turn. [A marked target takes -2 on attack rolls that do not include the person that marked them, and defenders like fighters and paladins often have effects that interact with marks]
• Storm Pillar: Create a pillar of crackling lightning in a square within 50 ft. The pillar occupies the square for a round and any enemy that moves into a square adjacent to it takes d6+Stat damage
• Taste of Life: Melee attack vs Fortitude. Does 1d8 + Stat damage and you gain 2+ Secondary Stat temporary hit points.
• Unravelling Dart: Targets 1 or 2 creatures within 50 feet. Does 1d4 + Stat damage to each and if the target has vulnerabilities it triggers them. If not the bolt does Secondary Stat extra Damage

And the classes:

• Artificer
• Fighter (Brawler)
• Barbarian (Thunderborn)
• Bard
• Cleric
• Mage (Nethermancer)
• Rogue
• Sorcerer (Wild)
• Swordmage
• Vampire
• Warlock (Fey Pact)
• Warlord (Bravura)
• Wizard (Staff)

Now to me these are very different approaches and having them as your easiest to use attacks makes the characters very distinctive. I'm curious about how easy other people find to match the at will power to the class and why people think that this part was too samey.

 

[Hussar]

IMO, and I'm sure there are those who are going to jump up and down to tell me how wrong I am, is that the whole "samey" canard was simply an artifact of the presentation. The powers were all formatted the same, and most people didn't bother to actually do more than skim the books, thus, all the powers were the same.

It was a such a very large presentation change from every other version of D&D, folks just couldn't seem to wrap their brains around it. In earlier D&D, the only thing that was formatted like this was spells - so, everything that has the same format has to be spells. So, that must mean that every class in 4e is just a spell caster... on and on.

But, yeah, presentation is such a HUGE issue. There's a very, very good reason they don't rearrange the PHB's between editions. It's Stats, race, class, equipment, skills (if they exist in the edition) feats (again, if they exist) and now Background and Flaws.

Note how all the newer additions to the game keep getting added to the tail end? That's not a mistake or an accident. That's VERY deliberate.

4e made the mistake of trying to organize things differently and, IMO, that was one of the main reasons for its rejection while 5e, which incorporates so much 4e DNA, is accepted without quibble.

 

[Garthanos]

NO

 

[Neonchameleon]

NO

Care to unpack?

 

[Olrox17]

IMO, and I'm sure there are those who are going to jump up and down to tell me how wrong I am, is that the whole "samey" canard was simply an artifact of the presentation. The powers were all formatted the same, and most people didn't bother to actually do more than skim the books, thus, all the powers were the same.

It was a such a very large presentation change from every other version of D&D, folks just couldn't seem to wrap their brains around it. In earlier D&D, the only thing that was formatted like this was spells - so, everything that has the same format has to be spells. So, that must mean that every class in 4e is just a spell caster... on and on.

But, yeah, presentation is such a HUGE issue. There's a very, very good reason they don't rearrange the PHB's between editions. It's Stats, race, class, equipment, skills (if they exist in the edition) feats (again, if they exist) and now Background and Flaws.

Note how all the newer additions to the game keep getting added to the tail end? That's not a mistake or an accident. That's VERY deliberate.

4e made the mistake of trying to organize things differently and, IMO, that was one of the main reasons for its rejection while 5e, which incorporates so much 4e DNA, is accepted without quibble.

Indeed. So many 5e mechanics are taken directly from fourth and given a new coat of paint, and people don’t even realize it.

 

[Garthanos]

Care to unpack?

I am a bit sleepy right now but i thought being silly terse had a funnier sound than it did. I have pretty much written the argument off in a manner very similar to Hussar and do not have huge amounts to add.


However how about this additional point I call holistic impact.
Individual powers generally carry the impact of related abilities from the class or sometimes from feats.
A couple of examples

• The grappling strike also marks the enemy with that attendant cascade of additional opportunities it characterizes the nature of that attack itself.
• My swordmages at-wills set me up for a White Lotus riposte picture his aura pulsing with the energy from his at-will and releasing it when he is subsequently attacked.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I said this before and I'll say it again. People would like 4E more if all the powers were written in Gygaxian prose...

Indeed. So many 5e mechanics are taken directly from fourth and given a new coat of paint, and people don’t even realize it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I said in another thread I'd put some at will first level 4e powers and a list of classes to explain my confusion with the meme that 4e powers are similar between classes. All these are at will powers I've seen on characters, and I think I've removed anything too obvious such as Vicious Mockery from the Bard, or anything from the psionic classes (including the monk) that don't use standard AEDU. All of them I think are pretty clearly associated with one of the classes below (there's only one per class although I have put both Mage and Wizard in there).

Astral Seal:

Target a foe within 25 feet at +2 vs Reflex. On a hit the target takes -2 to all defences until end of next turn and the next ally who hits them heals 2+secondary stat hit points

Nice job on cherry picking out one of the different style powers! Did that class run out of samey ones?

Brash Assault:

Melee attack vs AC. 1W + Stat damage. Hit or miss the target can make a melee basic attack against you as a free action and they have combat advantage. If they do one of your allies within 25 feet can make a melee or ranged basic attack against them with combat advantage.
[*]Chaos Bolt: Target a foe within 50ft vs Will. Hit: 1d10 + Stat damage. If your attack roll was even you must make this attack again make a secondary attack against a target within 25ft of your previous target. On a hit d6 vs will and you must attack a new target within 25ft if the attack roll was even. Keep attacking until you run out of targets or roll an odd number.
[*]Deft Strike: Melee or ranged weapon attack vs AC. You may move up to 10ft before the atttack. On a hit do 1W + Stat damage. [Under 4e rules if you are hidden before an action you don't become unhidden until the end of the whole action - and hiding can be done as part of a move action]
[*]Eyebite: Target a foe within 50ft vs reflex. On a hit d6+Stat damage and you are invisible to the target until the end of the next turn
[*]Howl of Fury: Melee weapon attack. Hit: 1W + Stat damage. You then howl a 15ft cone that includes the target. Everyone other than the target in the cone takes thunder damage equal to [Secondary Stat]
[*]Grappling Strike: Melee weapon attack vs AC. Must have a hand free. Hit: 1W + Stat damage and you grab the foe, automatically ending the grab at end of next turn. With [Subclass] you may use this as an opportunity attack.
[*]Lightning Lure: Target a foe within 15ft, vs Fortitude. On a hit 1d6+[stat] damage and pull the target to the nearest square adjacent to you.
[*]Magic Weapon: Melee or ranged weapon attack. Attack: +1 vs AC. Hit: 1W+Stat and each ally adjacent to you gains a +1 bonus to attack, and a [secondary stat] bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn
[*]Misdirected Mark: Target a foe within 50ft. Hit: 1d8 + Stat damage and the target is marked by an ally within 25ft of you until end of next turn. [A marked target takes -2 on attack rolls that do not include the person that marked them, and defenders like fighters and paladins often have effects that interact with marks]
[*]Storm Pillar: Create a pillar of crackling lightning in a square within 50 ft. The pillar occupies the square for a round and any enemy that moves into a square adjacent to it takes d6+Stat damage
[*]Taste of Life: Melee attack vs Fortitude. Does 1d8 + Stat damage and you gain 2+ Secondary Stat temporary hit points.
[*]Unravelling Dart: Targets 1 or 2 creatures within 50 feet. Does 1d4 + Stat damage to each and if the target has vulnerabilities it triggers them. If not the bolt does Secondary Stat extra Damage

All of these powers are samey. Damage + Small effect. Your whole turn is using one and only one of these powers.

You can look at the effect on each and call them different. They are different - that's why I don't call them the same. But samey is when something shares more similarities than differences and IMO these do because the most important parts of these powers are the 1[W] + damage.

And the classes:

• Artificer
• Fighter (Brawler)
• Barbarian (Thunderborn)
• Bard
• Cleric
• Mage (Nethermancer)
• Rogue
• Sorcerer (Wild)
• Swordmage
• Vampire
• Warlock (Fey Pact)
• Warlord (Bravura)
• Wizard (Staff)

I played 4e - most of these powers I already know what class they belong to.

Now to me these are very different approaches and having them as your easiest to use attacks makes the characters very distinctive. I'm curious about how easy other people find to match the at will power to the class and why people think that this part was too samey.

Now you can focus on the differences in those powers so much that they don't seem samey to you. I fully admit that's possible. But it's hard to read through those power lists and not see everything as do some damage and do some small effect. If you can't see sameyness on that level I don't think we can discuss. Now maybe you want to make the point that the level I'm looking at isn't really the level that matters when playing the game - that's an interesting discussion - but you can't look at those powers at the higher more abstract level i'm viewing them and come away with these things are vastly different.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Nice job on cherry picking out one of the different style powers! Did that class run out of samey ones?

I'm picking powers that actually saw play and that I recall seeing play. That was one of two at wills I recall on a "laser cleric" and the one that was more commonly used. So I'm cherry picking by picking what people did in play?

All of these powers are samey. Damage + Small effect. Your whole turn is using one and only one of these powers.

You can look at the effect on each and call them different. They are different - that's why I don't call them the same. But samey is when something shares more similarities than differences and IMO these do because the most important parts of these powers are the 1[W] + damage.

Oh noes. People attack things and that makes them samey.

Do you believe that the fighter, the rogue, and the barbarian should all be the same class? Because in 3.5 they are far more similar than those powers. So is samey something you consider entirely inherent to D&D?

Now you can focus on the differences in those powers so much that they don't seem samey to you. I fully admit that's possible. But it's hard to read through those power lists and not see everything as do some damage and do some small effect. If you can't see sameyness on that level I don't think we can discuss. Now maybe you want to make the point that the level I'm looking at isn't really the level that matters when playing the game - that's an interesting discussion - but you can't look at those powers at the higher more abstract level i'm viewing them and come away with these things are vastly different.

So ... in combat it's samey if people do damage with their actions? The level you are looking at things makes fireball seem samey to a sword swing. In any edition. They spend an action to do an amount of damage to some number of targets. Indeed there is no additional effect with either fireball or a classic fighter making a sword swing.

If you see a classic fireball as similar to a classic sword swing then I don't see your definition of saminess as meaningful. If on the other hand you do not see a classic fireball as similar to a classic sword swing then I don't think that group are samey.

 

[BryonD]

Everything is relative.
And I'm not interested in starting at GO on this debate that really came to conclusion years ago.
It should not take that much Google-Fu to track down the cases which were made.
But, compared to other games against which 4E was competing for players and the demands of a significant numbers of the playerbase the answer is a resounding YES.
You can go on all day about how completely different a fireball is compared to swinging a sword and having this or that completely un-fire-related special rider ability tied to said sword swing. And you would be right. But EVERY RPG (at least of those running for "being popular") can make that exact same case.
4E was all about "the math works". And no matter how long your list that EXACT SAME MATH was always there.

So taking a list of 4E elements and trying to evaluate them in a vacuum is meaningless.
The differences, which most certainly ARE there, completely miss the point.

And I also recognize that there are players who simply don't perceive or otherwise care about that ubiquitous sameness. And I have no argument that their love of 4E is blind to its presence. But the theme is this thread is already "I don't perceive it, therefore everyone else who said it is just wrong".

Me seeing it clearly has no bearing on your perception. You not seeing it has no bearing on the reality that I see. And obviously there are still 4E fans smarting about this in 2020 and calling it a "canard" and a "meme". Which pretty well makes it clear that the perception was VERY common. That this is not a red flag that something better than "you are wrong" is required is very telling.

Try to accept that people really do experience 4E as exactly how they describe it. There is no misrepresentation. There is certainly no failure to wrap anyone's brain around anything. There is simply a standard established by OTHER games and 4E doesn't meet THAT standard NOT through failure but instead through proactive choice to prioritize other standards.

You can tilt at this windmill for another decade or two if you want. It won't change. And it will just appear that 4E fans can't wrap their brains around what some many other fans have the liberty to demand from modern games.

Or you can accept that and move on with enjoying your game of choice.

This debate was old then, it is old and irrelevant now. And it is starting to feel like arguing with flat-Earthers. If your position require you to say that the dominant majority of a group which is by and large defined by very smart people are across the board deluded and failing to understand your personal insights, then it may be you are the one missing something.