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I do not like what this thread has become to be about! STOP EXCLUDING ME!!!

I mean, in both cases people are talking. My point is that’s about where the similarities end.

And by “require abstraction” you mean “we can’t feasibly physically act this out at the table”, right? I ask this based on past discussions and I have a feeling that will be your answer, but let me know if that’s not the case. Where I’m going with this is that friends talking at a table is...

So… it’s a framework that helps us determine success or failure of uncertain actions and allows us to do so with a degree of satisfaction? That’s what I get out of that. Would you say my reading is accurate?

But you can accomplish everything you’ve said without game mechanics. Is it the uncertainty? Those moments when we’re not sure how things would go? Do you stab the orc or not? A coin flip would get out of the way pretty easily! Why not go with that?

Well, I was commenting on what @Micah Sweet shared, and his exchange with @TwoSix . But if you don’t think they’re necessary, that they’re just tools… what are they tools for? I think it’s also possible for tools to be necessary. I asked a specific poster a specific question that, as far...

Yes but perhaps people can actually stop for a moment and consider these things, no? Sometimes, it may indeed be difficult to explain why we like or dislike something. Other times, though, it’s easy as hell. Sometimes it takes someone asking about these things to really consider them, and to...

Well, I responded to the general desire for the rules to get out of the way “whenever possible”. So I asked the question I asked because in freeform, the rules are nearly entirely out of the way. I was asking to see what the response to that might be. Which I haven’t heard from @Lanefan yet...

Okay, but you can do that through freeform roleplaying, right? So what makes an RPG a preferable alternative for that goal if the rules get in the way? In freeform, the rules are entirely out of the way, right?

Yeah, I see this kind of comment fairly frequently, and I know I’ve seen you say it plenty of times. To me, it makes about as much sense as saying “I prefer the roleplaying to get out of the way” when talking about RPGs. I enjoy the game. I enjoy the way the rules help shape play and help...

Ugh having to imagine all those things sounds positively exhausting!!!!

It’s not a judgment. It’s an expression of bewilderment. But sure… find offense in it and complain about that perceived offense when we’re talking about games you don’t even like.

Yes, I understand your stance. I don’t agree with it at all. I fee like you choose to find conflict where I don’t think such conflict exists. You seem to not want to engage with the rules of the game… that somehow doing so disturbs your enjoyment of the game. It leaves me wondering how you...

But "unnecessarily" isn't what I'd call them. Again... if the purpose of a GM narrating events of play is to give the players an idea of what's going on... to inform the players as much as the characters would be informed, or as close to that as possible... then I don't think any tool that helps...

But why wouldn't this just be a little extra effort that they put into something? Seriously, I don't see the reason you're dividing these things up so much. Well, it wasn't just that. It was more about how your group seems to be halting play to constantly angle for using their best Action...

I mean, we're playing games. If people want to say "rules are icky" I'm gonna call it silly. Especially knowing that you like Level Up and other forms of D&D and there are tons of mechanics involved all the time. I can't really understand the cherry picking involved of what rules are acceptable...

I mean I would generally use it for its special resistance the first chance I got if I thought it made sense to resist. You're right, actually accepting the consequences is a possibility, so I should have been clearer. As for the character being aware of the ability... I think they absolutely...

Yes, it's all subjective Micah. So what? Here's my subjective opinion... the reasoning behind the "it takes me out of the fiction" mindset any time game mechanics are brought into things is mindbogglingly silly. We're playing a game... games have rules and procedures. Those will come up...

Yes, of course you think it was clear. You stated it. But I don't think it was clear because you said "do you stop..." so I asked specifically what you mean. Do I stop what? You didn't actually answer that, you just pointed out to me that the question was in fact clear. Now, you did...

I don't know what you mean, here. Do I stop to consider the mechanics? Stop what, exactly? I'm playing the game... the game has mechanics. I engage with the mechanics. Is that all people have done? Honestly, I've never used the shrug emoji. And with good reason. Nothing says more that either...