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These are both insulting and disingenuous comments. I am confident that you both know what he meant.

Yes. As I said upthread, that is how I do it.

Except that a single person in a group of any size making noise would ruin it for everyone. You can coach the barbarian how to shut up, but when the big luck steps on a branch, you are all caught.

It's a convenient abstraction that makes no sense in the fiction. You just have to be okay with that.

This can get alittle muddy, though, from the perspective of who can see what when their initiative comes up. If the leopard has not leapt out until its turn, it is still hidden when the PCs go. What can they reasonably do, without using player knowledge, then?

Like I said, on reflection the 5e24 method is not a bad solution for "oh crap, orcs!"/"oh crap, adventurers!" But I wouldn't use it for an ambush scenario.

Sure. I should have said "contradiction." I mean, I did go on for a bit after that. Which a fine way to handle it except now why are we even making a stealth check for anyone? "We hide and stay real quiet until the target arrives." It seems like an exercise in rolling dice just to pretend the...

This is a paradox, and therefore cannot be true.

I mean sure. You can do group stealth checks, too, which can mitigate the clankies. But then, why What's the point? I don't mean that dismissively. I think it is worth thinking about what we are doing and what we are trying to achieve and how the system we choose, 2014 or 2024 or whatever...

I am not sure i have ever followed the exact rules in any edition. It is just one of those things I think the fiction itself determines what happens and how. If the ninja is in position and everyone fails to perceive said ninja, it makes no sense for anything to happen before the ninja strikes...

Going first is not that important, at least not for the amount of resources you have to use to hide the non-rogue party members.

I am not sure how you got there. I said the rule was bad, not that I was going to force myself to use it.

Sorry -- I meant the rule is nonsense, not the post. It worked fine. But it completely trivializes the ambush. What's the point?

This nonsense has a Viva la Dirt League skit written all over it. Another 2024 5E "improvement" no one asked for. So the party sets up an ambush to take down an enemy patrol, successfully hiding and otherwise preparing, and when they strike everyone has to roll initiative and potentially the...

The players definitely thought the sci-fi dungeon was shocking.

Marvel's Vader book(s) was really good.

Fair enough. I have been running when to roll initiative like that since 2E.

I am struggling to understand why you would have players roll initiative before the characters notice something to respond to.

First of all, gift horses and all that I guess. But the existence of someone using the tool poorly does not mean the tool is bad.

There has to be an inciting incident that calls for the initiative roll. If it is an ambush, I give the ambusher a single action that sets off the encounter, and once it is resolved, then everyone rolls for initiative as normal.