D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Reynard]

So you don't use the 24 surprise rules and continue using the 14 ones. Got it.

Under the 14 rules an ambusher will get one or two rounds worth of actions off before the surprised can go. Under the 24 rules they can only get one off before the ambushee.

Fair enough. I have been running when to roll initiative like that since 2E.

 

[Voadam]

Turns in combat are an abstraction for ease of resolution, but within the fiction, all participants’ actions within a round are happening simultaneously, or very near to it. So, a surprised creature getting to take its turn before the attacker just means that the surprised creature saw or heard the attacker coming at them just before the hit landed, but had fast enough reflexes to land their attack or get out of the way in the nick of time.

But we have the stealth versus perception part to generally handle that narrative element of being noticed and that gets resolved before the initiative roll.

It would seem a bit of a weird narrative disconnect for a PC ninja to win a stealth check to successfully not be noticed then get attacked because they were noticed.

 

[Artamo]

Very simply: they were surprised but recovered fast enough before there were repercussions. Luck favored them that day. In the sequence of events, the act of the surprise had to have occurred, e.g. the orcs emerge from their cover to fire arrows - they’ve revealed themselves (that’s the surprise part, it didn’t cost them movement), and they’re going to shoot arrows (maybe…that’s the initiative roll).

 

[Charlaquin]

But we have the stealth versus perception part to generally handle that narrative element of being noticed and that gets resolved before the initiative roll.

It would seem a bit of a weird narrative disconnect for a PC ninja to win a stealth check to successfully not be noticed then get attacked because they were noticed.

I don’t know what to tell you, then. Keep using the 5.0 surprise rules if you don’t like the 5.5 ones. That’s what I do.

 

[Maxperson]

But we have the stealth versus perception part to generally handle that narrative element of being noticed and that gets resolved before the initiative roll.

It would seem a bit of a weird narrative disconnect for a PC ninja to win a stealth check to successfully not be noticed then get attacked because they were noticed.

The ninja isn't standing mid swing right next to the victim such that no time passes in-between surprise being determined and the ninja's attack. The ninja has to pop out and possibly move before swinging. That takes time. Time enough for a lucky/quick defender to attack first.

 

[TheSword]

I mean there are a couple of options under the rules for this scenario.

1. They can take a dodge action to represent them going on high alert
2. They can ready an action for when whatever threat presents itself
3. They can delay their initiative until something they can react too happens.

The most sensible choice is option 2 because they keep their place in the initiative order.

I do like how WFRP 4e handles it though. The inciting incident happens out of sequence and then when you get down to that players go they miss their action. It’s a bit like the opposite of a Ready action. You pay it back when your turn comes round, instead of paying it forward.

 

[Aurel Guthrie]

I am struggling to understand why you would have players roll initiative before the characters notice something to respond to.

Because that's how it works RAW. In 2024 d&d, if someone unseen makes an attack, you roll initiative, with the surprised creature rolling initiative at disadvantage and the attack happening on the attacker's turn. So you might start initiative by attacking unaware opponents, but they still have a chance to act before the attack actually happens if they roll well enough through the disadvantage.

So you have everyone roll initiative. You can, if you want, tell them they sense an attack is coming but can't tell the direction just yet (maybe they can hear the sound of a bow's string being pulled, or gun being cocked, or magic starting to be cast), then if someone rolls high enough they can prepare for it.

I've seen a lot of people online say this is super awkward but I feel like it can work pretty well if you narrate things rather than telling people to just roll initiative and not say anything else.

 

[Aurel Guthrie]

I mean there are a couple of options under the rules for this scenario.

1. They can take a dodge action to represent them going on high alert
2. They can ready an action for when whatever threat presents itself
3. They can delay their initiative until something they can react too happens.

The most sensible choice is option 2 because they keep their place in the initiative order.

I do like how WFRP 4e handles it. The inciting incident happens out of sequence and then when you get down to that players go they miss their action. It’s a bit like the opposite of a Ready action. You pay it back when your turn comes round, instead of paying it forward.

You can also take the Search action. A perception check that's higher than the creature's stealth check will end their Invisible condition, so they won't have advantage on their attack roll. Then, since they're now visible, there's also the possibility that they could be killed before they're even able to make the attack if enough party members rolled high enough, or if you can make use of your bonus action, action surge, etc.

 

[Hriston]

So in 5e 24 how do you handle someone who is surprised, but unaware of a hidden ambusher?

From the SRD:

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order. The GM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the GM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

So an ambusher has hidden well and the whole party is surprised but someone wins initiative over the ambusher. A lone ambusher attacking a multiperson party this is not that unlikely.

I see two ways to handle this.

1 The high initiative surprised get their place set in initiative but no real combat actions until after they are aware they are in combat.

2 They are aware something is up, but no idea what. They could dodge, or look around and make a search perception check, or cast a prep spell/use a power, or move, or do something else appropriate.

3. Describe the ambusher beginning their attack, which starts combat and "surprises" those combatants who were unaware. Then everyone rolls Initiative (surprised creatures with disadvantage). Anyone whose Initiative is higher than the ambusher's has time to take their turn before the ambusher's attack goes into effect.

 

[Reynard]

Because that's how it works RAW. In 2024 d&d, if someone unseen makes an attack, you roll initiative, with the surprised creature rolling initiative at disadvantage and the attack happening on the attacker's turn. So you might start initiative by attacking unaware opponents, but they still have a chance to act before the attack actually happens if they roll well enough through the disadvantage.

So you have everyone roll initiative. You can, if you want, tell them they sense an attack is coming but can't tell the direction just yet (maybe they can hear the sound of a bow's string being pulled, or gun being cocked, or magic starting to be cast), then if someone rolls high enough they can prepare for it.

I've seen a lot of people online say this is super awkward but I feel like it can work pretty well if you narrate things rather than telling people to just roll initiative and not say anything else.

This nonsense has a Viva la Dirt League skit written all over it. Another 2024 5E "improvement" no one asked for.

So the party sets up an ambush to take down an enemy patrol, successfully hiding and otherwise preparing, and when they strike everyone has to roll initiative and potentially the ambush is ruined? What's the point of such a system?