D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Voadam]

Sorry -- I meant the rule is nonsense, not the post.

It worked fine.

But it completely trivializes the ambush. What's the point?

I am guessing the issue was the powerfully impactful nature of getting two full rounds of actions when someone gets surprise and wins initiative in 5e 14.

If most fights only last a few rounds (3-5) getting a two round headstart advantage is pretty big.

Under 24 rules the biggest advantage to be gained or lost is who goes first. Depending on how you interpret and run the 5e 24 surprise rule the ambusher either only imposes disadvantage on their surprised targets' initiative rolls, or are generally the first ones to make an action knowing what is going on.

Going first is a worthwhile advantage.

 

[Aurel Guthrie]

The new rules allow for this sort of scenario:

DM: As you guys are walking down the path, the sound of a bow's string can be heard being pulled. Everyone, roll initiative with disadvantage as you're surprised by an unseen attacker.

[Initiative is rolled]

DM: Stick, you're up
Stick: Sweet. I'm going to dart for cover behind a tree. I would like to make a perception check to see if I can find the attacker
DM: Ok, that'll be a Search action.
Stick: I rolled an 18!
DM: That beats the attacker's stealth check! You can see them behind this tree over here.
Stick: For my bonus action, I'm going to Misty Step right next to them and give them disadvantage on their ranged attack

Or y'know, any other type of counterplay.

This is, imo, a lot more interesting than the previous approach which was... the attacker gets to attack and you can't do anything about it, and then the attacker might get to go again. The previous approach also made stealth and certain spells like pass without trace way too strong, and allowed parties to trivialize too many encounters too easily. My groups certainly abused the surprised condition too many times

 

[Reynard]

When a combat is designed to last 3-5 rounds, having two rounds of attacks before the surprised side gets to go (as could happen in 5e14) was far, far too much. It worked fine when that didn't happen, sure, but the "monsters" had to be mighty quick for that not to happen. 5e24 works fine when everyone on the surprising side doesn't roll crap for init, or conversely, the surprised side doesn't roll too well. But still, when they do, there is plenty of "excuses" (many listed above) that explain it. Myself, I'd use any of those, and more, depending on exactly what the combat is about, and who is in it (on both sides).

Going first is not that important, at least not for the amount of resources you have to use to hide the non-rogue party members.

 

[Artamo]

I am not sure how you got there. I said the rule was bad, not that I was going to force myself to use it.

The rule isn’t bad, it’s just accomplishing a different objective.

 

[billd91]

I strongly suspect the point is to nerf ambush strategies. Surprise is busted powerful in 5.0.

Surprise is one of those elements where the rules have varied quite a bit from edition to edition - some much more powerful than others.

In AD&D, you might surprise the opposition for multiple segments, which doesn't sound like a lot because they're less than a round, but characters not casting spells got to treat each segment effectively as a whole round anyway - so it could feel like multiple rounds of whaling on the surprised side before they could do anything.

Then 3e gave you a partial action, which was hard to wrap your brain around, but was definitely less than a round's worth of hammering the patsies.

5e.2014 basically gave the surprising ambusher a free round, possibly even before the target getting reactions much less actions. While not that different from 1e, it also includes spellcasting and the full action economy. Moreover, with a good initiative roll, you could potentially have TWO full rounds of actions before the targets can really respond.

5e.2024 definitely steps things back in the sense that the surprising ambusher doesn't get a full round that's completely unanswered - they just have a sporting chance of going first.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So you don't use the 24 surprise rules and continue using the 14 ones. Got it.

Under the 14 rules an ambusher will get one or two rounds worth of actions off before the surprised can go. Under the 24 rules they can only get one off before the ambushee.

They arent using either.

They are allowing the opening attack to be the thing that causes initiative. That doesnt mean anyone loses a turn.

 

[aco175]

Seems like a lot of rules where I just go with it and say that the monster charges out of the bushes from where it was hiding and you are surprised. Oh, you rolled high, then you seen it coming before the rest of the party.

This guy knew what was up and seen the attacker coming.

 

[Reynard]

I am not sure i have ever followed the exact rules in any edition. It is just one of those things I think the fiction itself determines what happens and how. If the ninja is in position and everyone fails to perceive said ninja, it makes no sense for anything to happen before the ninja strikes. If the bandit archers successfully hid in the treeline, they get things going when they loose arrows. Same for the PCs.

Note that barring simultaneous, coordinated missile fire, I tend to only give a single actor that inciting action "for free."

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I personally give advantage on attacks against surprised creatures in round one, and the condition ends at the end of the round.

Also, i do not call for initiative until an obviously aggressive act has actually been commited to and engaged, ie the arrow has left the bow, but even then sometimes the ambushed parties may not know what to do or where anyone is.

When my buddy calls for initiative "early" we just treat it as the about-to-be-ambushed parties take turns but until the first ambusher goes and attacks or whatever, the ambushees dont know they are in combat.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Going first is not that important, at least not for the amount of resources you have to use to hide the non-rogue party members.

@mearls has a neat approach in his Moldvay project, where he's given the ranger the ability to grant their Stealth result to allies.

I thought it was an interesting idea to help avoid the scenario you're referring to, is why I bring it up.