Bronn Spellforger
First Post
Polymorph also heals your level in hitpoints.
You could probably chalk Bless up on that list, too.
You could probably chalk Bless up on that list, too.
0- lvl Magic Missile
- Thread starter ThomasBJJ
- Start date
Tom Cashel
First Post
You've supplied examples of spells that do three different things but not three completely different things.
Okay, let me clarify:
The spells you've cited do indeed produce multiple effects, but they are simply "side-effects," if you will, of the single magical effect produced by the spell.
e.g. Shield creates a shield that does several related things, Haste makes you faster, and by the rules being faster has several effects on play.
I think this is different from one spell that
a.) protects you
b.) adds to Strength
c.) does damage
all by magical means. See what I mean?
(edit: I knew you'd jump in on this, Bronn...)
Okay, let me clarify:
The spells you've cited do indeed produce multiple effects, but they are simply "side-effects," if you will, of the single magical effect produced by the spell.
e.g. Shield creates a shield that does several related things, Haste makes you faster, and by the rules being faster has several effects on play.
I think this is different from one spell that
a.) protects you
b.) adds to Strength
c.) does damage
all by magical means. See what I mean?
(edit: I knew you'd jump in on this, Bronn...)
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Tom Cashel
First Post
Bronn Spellforger said:
Yes, as a logical side-effect of the change in form.
Is the Strength bonus from Greater Mark of Earth a logical side-effect of being protected from damage? Is being able to deal out damage a logical side-effect? I think not.
Three spells for one slot.
Shampoohorn
First Post
clarifying
As such, these two properties of the spell are not completely different. They compliment each other quite well.
I'm not sure this is the right way to read the Greater Mark spells. The descriptions state that: (bold is my own)
I interpret this as meaning that the Greater Mark is applied to the subject as mark of earth but grants the damage resistance instead of the strength bonus and grants the cone-blast of earth and rocks instead of the ray-blast. If it granted all properties then the description would have said in addition to, instead of except.
As such, these two properties of the spell are not completely different. They compliment each other quite well.
Tom Cashel
First Post
Hmm...thanks for that tip. It could be that once again my player has quoted the rules to me in a flawed manner.
[I just love giving you hell, kitten...
]
[I just love giving you hell, kitten...
]Tom Cashel said:
How is a reflex save bonus a logical side effect of being protected from magic missiles? How is blocking AoO's a logical side effect of being protected from magic missiles?
On the flip side, being imbued with the essence of elemental earth could indeed be seen as giving extra strength and damage reduction. Then you give it up for a one shot ranged attack. Unusual, but all releated to elemental earth.
Tom Cashel
First Post
Caliban said:
Because the spell isn't called Protection from Magic Missiles; which is to say, that is not the primary effect. The primary effect is simply the creation of a shield of magical force. Now, the fact that you have a magical shield floating next to you seems to imply that the shield will do something, i.e. add to AC and help you dodge attacks. The magic missile protection seems more a foil to magic missile (i.e. a spell with no save that always hits). And really, if a mundane shield will deflect normal arrows, why shouldn't a magic shield deflect magic missiles?
Caliban said:
Damage reduction? Yes. Giving it up for a ranged attack? Unusual, yes, and also pretty cool. The extra strength just doesn't fit. Stone is strong, but it is strong in the sense of being hard and resilient (i.e. DR 10/+1). The fact that stone is resilient does not logically lead to a PC being able to lift more and do more damage with melee weapons.
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Bronn Spellforger
First Post
I don't think Tom's arguing that BOEM spells are "broken"... he's just saying it's a bit unusual that many of these spells just seem to be two lower level spells fused together.
For example, Greater Mark of Air (4th level)... let's you Fly (3rd), and then use up its power with a Wind Wall spell (3rd). So basically, it's two third level spells fused.
Personally, I think that's pretty damn cool and that Tom should stop whining about it.
But since Tom's my DM and DOESN'T allow the Shield spell to prevent AoO, well, that makes him a magnificent bastard in my book.
For example, Greater Mark of Air (4th level)... let's you Fly (3rd), and then use up its power with a Wind Wall spell (3rd). So basically, it's two third level spells fused.
Personally, I think that's pretty damn cool and that Tom should stop whining about it.
But since Tom's my DM and DOESN'T allow the Shield spell to prevent AoO, well, that makes him a magnificent bastard in my book.
Tom Cashel said:
Are you saying earth elementals aren't strong? Strength and resilience have always been associated with the element of earth. It's certainly a much closer relation than the shield spell granting a +3 Reflex save and immunity to magic missilesand +7 AC.
There are many spells that give multiple benefits that are only loosely related. The BOEM spells are just another variant.
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The 1 pt Magic Missile can be usefull for a few different reasons. It does less damage than a Ray of Frost, but no attack roll needed, and no saving throw. Also, it is not cold damage.
Yes it could force Con checks, and hopefully disrupt spellcasters.
As for the Damage Reduction 1/+1. What level would you think? What about duration?
Yes it could force Con checks, and hopefully disrupt spellcasters.
As for the Damage Reduction 1/+1. What level would you think? What about duration?
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