D&D 5E 07/29/2013 - Legends & Lore It’s Mathemagical!

[Sword of Spirit]

I don't see how it makes no sense. It's just another way of making sure that low level spells aren't as effective as high level ones, an assumption that D&D has incorporated in various ways for a very long time, particularly strongly since 1989 with 2e.

The reason I say it makes no sense is that it is unnecessary to achieving the goal and adds complexity while introducing what I see as a problem. He had already achieved the goal by adding a scaling save bonus and simply keeping the class level scaling DC. Changing that to a spell level scaling DC has the effect of seriously limiting the usefulness of low level spell slots--something that isn't mentioned in his goals at all.

I personally prefer that low level spell slots stay relevent. As has been mentioned, when you cripple the effectiveness of low level spell slots you tempt a 5 MWD mentality.

So why do what is suggested for the reasons suggested? It makes no sense.

 

[amerigoV]

Holy crap in a box, @amerigoV !!! I just clicked the link to that Kickstarter . . .

Talk about PURE AWESOME wrapped in bacon sprinkled with a healthy topping of PWNAGE.

I don't think I've ever been happier to part with my money on an RPG product, almost ever.

Call me "Legatus," my friend!

**BACKED**

You are quite welcome! Yep - that puppy has been at Pinnacle for a long time (I believe Wiggie of Triple Ace Games wrote a lot of it back when he was there 5 years ago). And just think, you will have your hands on the PDF in a month.

 

[RevTurkey]

On the subject of maths... Race stat mods maths make no sense. Why is this system obsessed with only being additive? We can subtract numbers too you know. Having humans have a flat bonus to every stat is stupid. It means that only a +2 bonus makes you better than an average human. A zero bonus makes you worse than a human. As the other races mostly have two +1s this means they are only equal to humans in two areas and weaker in every other. That's nuts and makes humans the master race. If you only have additive mechanics then you cannot accurately reflect that some races are weaker than humans in areas and better in others. I assume that humans are the reference at zero as in previous editions. This was brought to my attention watching a youtube vid by Anders Wood (Woodwwad) and although it doesn't make me want to abandon all hope as he seems to suggest (still lots to lovein the Playtest) it does give me cause for concern that they haven't sorted what for me is a massive deal. If WoTC don't think this sort of thing warrants attention then maybe the game will contain many more issues of similar nature. Again...it's nuts

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

On the subject of maths... Race stat mods maths make no sense. Why is this system obsessed with only being additive? We can subtract numbers too you know. Having humans have a flat bonus to every stat is stupid. It means that only a +2 bonus makes you better than an average human. A zero bonus makes you worse than a human. As the other races mostly have two +1s this means they are only equal to humans in two areas and weaker in every other. That's nuts and makes humans the master race. If you only have additive mechanics then you cannot accurately reflect that some races are weaker than humans in areas and better in others. I assume that humans are the reference at zero as in previous editions. This was brought to my attention watching a youtube vid by Anders Wood (Woodwwad) and although it doesn't make me want to abandon all hope as he seems to suggest (still lots to lovein the Playtest) it does give me cause for concern that they haven't sorted what for me is a massive deal. If WoTC don't think this sort of thing warrants attention then maybe the game will contain many more issues of similar nature. Again...it's nuts

You are not alone. There are a number of us very vocal about our dislike of how they're handling racial modifiers. We seem to be being ignored though. They appear satisfied with the current setup.

 

[billd91]

On the subject of maths... Race stat mods maths make no sense. Why is this system obsessed with only being additive? We can subtract numbers too you know. Having humans have a flat bonus to every stat is stupid. It means that only a +2 bonus makes you better than an average human. A zero bonus makes you worse than a human. As the other races mostly have two +1s this means they are only equal to humans in two areas and weaker in every other. That's nuts and makes humans the master race.

It's worth noting that D&D before 3e was always intended to be a human-favoring game. The irony is that it was only with the human benefits of 3e that people had a positive reason to play humans rather than a negative (and often house-ruled away) reason to not play demihumans.

Ultimately, I don't have a problem with humans having better stat modifiers since they get little else. But then, I also roll my stats and have my players do so when I run games so I don't really care much about relative stat costs. I don't see how a +1 on every stat is supposed to work for point buy character gen, though. Going with all 13s as in the packet example yields the human player all 14s compared to demihumans with 2 14s. Not a breaker with the actual stat mods since they're just 1 point higher, but that works out to 8 extra points worth of stats. I can't see people who favor point buy being satisfied with that since they are usually so obsessed with stat balance in the first place.

 

[mlund]

The current set-up is fine for Player Characters. Adventurers are cut from a superior cloth. On of humanity's few distinctive features is that their innate adaptability lends itself to a better crop of superior outliers (read: heroes and villains) among their population as opposed to other races. Only a fraction of humans have +1 to all their ability scores but every elf has low-light vision, trance, and is immune to sleep and charm - even the lowliest servant.

- Marty Lund

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I've decided that if they provide a proper fluff, and balance half-elves so they aren't so far behind, then I might be able to live with the absurd human stats.

They would have to--right in the racial trait listing--say that "while humans lack the natural gifts of many other races, their drive, drive, ambition, and perseverence allow them to succeed where others might fail." In other word, a human with a Dex of 12 is actually more like a Dex of 11 and a will to excel. The 12 Dex elf is literally more dextrous from a fluff standpoint. And as mlund said, it would primarily apply to adventuring humans rather than the other 99% of them.

But that's about the only way I can accept it from an in-world standpoint.

Also, half-elves need an additional ability boost of their choice to make them equivalent in power to their human and high elf parents.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

The current set-up is fine for Player Characters. Adventurers are cut from a superior cloth. On of humanity's few distinctive features is that their innate adaptability lends itself to a better crop of superior outliers (read: heroes and villains) among their population as opposed to other races. Only a fraction of humans have +1 to all their ability scores but every elf has low-light vision, trance, and is immune to sleep and charm - even the lowliest servant.

- Marty Lund

I've always had a problem with using "adventurers are cut from a superior cloth" as a baseline assumption for racial modifiers. I want the races to be representative of normal people.

The part that makes PCs above average is that you roll 4d6 and drop the lowest instead of simply rolling 3d6.

 

[Warbringer]

You are not alone. There are a number of us very vocal about our dislike of how they're handling racial modifiers. We seem to be being ignored though. They appear satisfied with the current setup.

Yes, that and the bland approach to humans in general

 

[RevTurkey]

Or...just do the maths right and give humans something else cool. In Savage Worlds they get a free Edge. I hear that people can 'get around' the issue with some fluffy thinking bit I still say it's nuts. Some of the other issues of designing are much harder to fix but racial stat mods are easy. Pick a posiition as starting point (3-18 range) and adjust according to various racial qualities...Half Orc being stronger but less Charismatic for example. It requires subtraction and admission that some races are superior than others in certain areas....is that too difficult? We can do multiplying as well...give gamers some credit for intelligence please. I could handle THAC0 when I was 9 years old so I can certainly take 1 away from another number at 40 years old! I like much of the direction the playtest is headed bit this racial mod thing keeps niggling me as being very amateurish in approach. Hmmm