1.0a is effectively dead even if Wizards backs down, but it is still important to fight for it.

[Glade Riven]

One way or another, 1.0a will effectively be sunset. Even if it isn't deauthorized, would you trust Wizards of the Coast again? I wouldn't. And SRD 5.2 or 6.0 or whatever they call the OneDnD SRD will have a new license regardless.

But I'd argue that it's still important to fight for it. And the ORC. Because it's about respect. Respect for players and for game designers. When surveys (don't have the data handy and I'm sure it's not quite scientific, but...) say over 40% of players aren't going back to WotC no matter what, that's huge. This community has long memories. OneDnD might succeed. Or it could fail worse than 4th edition. But when 7th Edition D&D comes around, and we're successful, the only way to gain trust back would be to release an SRD under the ORC. Because OGL 1.0a isn't sufficient anymore.

Pipe dream? Maybe. But I don't really need WotC at this point and will vote with my wallet.

 

[Greggy C]

Mod Edit:

Video deleted.

 

[Greggy C]

This community has long memories.

The community is on its last legs, if you scroll down the promotions list, you can tell there are a few hundred left that even care to look at another product.
Every time I go to rpg.net its a huge list of people who have passed.

Wizards is working on the next generation, they really don't care about anyone here.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I as a gamer don't feel disrespected. That still entirely depends on what they offer. If they offer the same quality of books and more that I want to have, I don't feel being monetized. This is just how our system works.

It is a whole different thing for 3pp people. I think they deserve a better offer.

PS
wouldn't they do 6th edition before 7th?

 

[Clint_L]

On another thread we were figuring how much we spent on D&D last year and where, and it turns out that:

A) I hope my spouse doesn't find the receipts, because it was a lot.
B) Over 97% of my spending went to 3PP

I do have a DnDBeyond Master Tier subscription but that's only 7 bucks/month, and other than that I bought two books from WotC. So I don't have a ton of leverage.

 

[Glade Riven]

The community is on its last legs, if you scroll down the promotions list, you can tell there are a few hundred left that even care to look at another product.
Every time I go to rpg.net its a huge list of people who have passed.

Wizards is working on the next generation, they really don't care about anyone here.

Well, aren't you just a ray of sunshine. How's Disney doing? Not that well. Self-inflicted wounds and all that. Alone, I'm a drop in the ocean, but in the pursuit of new audiences there is no guarantee they are going to show up. I don't need to put my money into Star Wars. Or Marvel. Or Dungeons and Dragons. And there's still a whole lot of bad press on social media and Youtube.

But rage drives clicks, and clicks lead to mistaken conclusions. Next comes Apathy. It's a slow burn, but the fight is winnable. So you know what I'm going to do? Play something else. Watch what Kobold Press is coming out with for their new system. Keep an eye on the ORC. Might try the Cypher system. I already own quite a bit of Pathfinder and Starfinder. And most importantly, vote with my wallet.

Drip, drip, drip.

 

[Charlaquin]

How's Disney doing? Not that well.

What world do you live in? Last I checked, Disney is like one and a half buyouts from having a complete monopoly on filmed media.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

On another thread we were figuring how much we spent on D&D last year and where, and it turns out that:

A) I hope my spouse doesn't find the receipts, because it was a lot.
B) Over 97% of my spending went to 3PP

I do have a DnDBeyond Master Tier subscription but that's only 7 bucks/month, and other than that I bought two books from WotC. So I don't have a ton of leverage.

2 books (on dndbeyond) = 60 dollars.
12*7 = 84 dollars.

This is 144 dollars. Not that bad.
15 Million * 144 would be enough to make everyone at hasbro happy.

This makes only 3% of your total expenditures?

144/0.03 = 4800
IF your wife finds out, your done.

 

[delericho]

One way or another, 1.0a will effectively be sunset. Even if it isn't deauthorized, would you trust Wizards of the Coast again?

The hope is that they'll update with a 1.0b that tightens the language about authorization, to make it clear that it cannot be de-authorized.

But, no, I wouldn't trust WotC again. That said, it's a bit more complex than that - there's a huge body of Open Game Content under OGL 1.0a that has become orphaned in some sense. So even if everyone active moves over to ORC, there will be a large body of work that is never moved, and then can't be used. Because of that, OGL 1.0a may not actually sunset if WotC back down on deauthorization.

I wouldn't. And SRD 5.2 or 6.0 or whatever they call the OneDnD SRD will have a new license regardless.

True. Though if OneD&D is indeed backwards compatible, it would probably be entirely possible to support it using only OGL 1.0a. Indeed, people published 4e-compatible adventures under that license, that that edition was much less compatible.

But I'd argue that it's still important to fight for it. And the ORC. Because it's about respect.

There is that. There is also the argument that companies should be required to respect their obligations to agreements freely entered - right or wrong, WotC signed up to the OGL and spent 20 years assuring us it was forever.

 

[Plokman]

The hope is that they'll update with a 1.0b that tightens the language about authorization, to make it clear that it cannot be de-authorized.

But, no, I wouldn't trust WotC again. That said, it's a bit more complex than that - there's a huge body of Open Game Content under OGL 1.0a that has become orphaned in some sense. So even if everyone active moves over to ORC, there will be a large body of work that is never moved, and then can't be used. Because of that, OGL 1.0a may not actually sunset if WotC back down on deauthorization.



True. Though if OneD&D is indeed backwards compatible, it would probably be entirely possible to support it using only OGL 1.0a. Indeed, people published 4e-compatible adventures under that license, that that edition was much less compatible.



There is that. There is also the argument that companies should be required to respect their obligations to agreements freely entered - right or wrong, WotC signed up to the OGL and spent 20 years assuring us it was forever.

No one likes liars, I wouldn't give full trust to Wizards but I would still buy minor items from them if they stopped running around fingers in the ear and admit defeat that OGLs are forever. Every lawyer we have seen says so, therefore they are committing are just stoking a fire that will end up with them in court by hundreds if not thousands of people.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Edit:

Video deleted.

Mod Note:

Using a YouTube video to say things you can’t simply type because of language is still not permitted. Don’t do that again.

 

[mamba]

144/0.03 = 4800
IF your wife finds out, your done.

If my wife found out, I’d point to the stuff she is buying

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If my wife found out, I’d point to the stuff she is buying

Going from my experience, that makes it worse, not better.

 

[Alzrius]

It's important to fight for the OGL v1.0a, I agree, but not because of any gesture that it might mean toward the community. Rather, it's important (at least to me) because there are entire game systems out there which are derived from the 3.5 SRD, and which won't be transferred over to the ORC License, leaving them effectively dead if WotC sunsets the OGL v1.0a (even if they migrate that and other older-edition SRDs to their new OGL, I wouldn't expect any publishers in their right mind to sign it based on the terms WotC has proposed to date).

Pathfinder 1E content. OSR content. Mutants & Masterminds content. All based on the 3.5 SRD, and all effectively dead without the OGL v1.0a. So yeah, it's worth fighting for, but not (just) because of respect, but because new stuff won't be made for games I'm not ready to give up on.

 

[MoonSong]

It's important to fight for the OGL v1.0a, I agree, but not because of any gesture that it might mean toward the community. Rather, it's important (at least to me) because there are entire game systems out there which are derived from the 3.5 SRD, and which won't be transferred over to the ORC License, leaving them effectively dead if WotC sunsets the OGL v1.0a (even if they migrate that and other older-edition SRDs to their new OGL, I wouldn't expect any publishers in their right mind to sign it based on the terms WotC has proposed to date).

Pathfinder 1E content. OSR content. Mutants & Masterminds content. All based on the 3.5 SRD, and all effectively dead without the OGL v1.0a. So yeah, it's worth fighting for, but not (just) because of respect, but because new stuff won't be made for games I'm not ready to give up on.

That plus orphaned stuff that doesn't even derive from the 3.5 srd. Which isn't little.

 

[Jer]

What world do you live in? Last I checked, Disney is like one and a half buyouts from having a complete monopoly on filmed media.

The thing is that Disney is doing great by any objective measure you might choose to use except the ones their shareholders seem to care about, and to them Disney was doing so poorly they had to oust the CEO and bring back the old guy.

The world is a very stupid place.

 

[Azzy]

The world is a very stupid place.

That about sums it up.

 

[Umbran]

Pipe dream? Maybe. But I don't really need WotC at this point and will vote with my wallet.

If you don't need WotC, then fighting for "respect" from them is pretty meaningless.

It is also kind of a pipe dream. Companies the size of Hasbro don't recognize "respect" as a business driver. Individual executives may want to work with respect, but that only lasts as long as the individual does.

The reason to continue fighting isn't so much respect, as giving the new leadership understanding. Fact of the matter is, if Hasbro wants Big Money from the brand, media (TV and Movies) and videogames are reasonable routes to that money. But there's no need to muck with licensing for the TTRPG to get that money.

 

[Glade Riven]

If you don't need WotC, then fighting for "respect" from them is pretty meaningless.

It is also kind of a pipe dream. Companies the size of Hasbro don't recognize "respect" as a business driver. Individual executives may want to work with respect, but that only lasts as long as the individual does.

The reason to continue fighting isn't so much respect, as giving the new leadership understanding. Fact of the matter is, if Hasbro wants Big Money from the brand, media (TV and Movies) and videogames are reasonable routes to that money. But there's no need to muck with licensing for the TTRPG to get that money.

If you don't respect your customer base you quickly find you don't have much of a customer base. Understanding is part of it. A lot of people at Wizards do understand - the problem is the executives brought in the last 5-ish years. They don't seem to understand what business they are in.

What world do you live in? Last I checked, Disney is like one and a half buyouts from having a complete monopoly on filmed media.

They've had a year where most of their films didn't make money or barely broke even after marketing. Especially in animation - both Lightyear and Strange World flopped. Marvel is hurting, Disney+ isn't bringing in nearly enough subscribers to justify the expense, and - oh yeah, they fired their CEO on a SUNDAY to bring back the old CEO that greenlit all the projects that didn't make money this last year. Sure, the theme parks are full but even the Pixie Dusters are getting angry at the company for choices made. Also, losing the Reedy Creek Improvement District is going to make development at Walt Disney World a lot more expensive because the new district now has to make sure everything is up-to-code at the county and state level. Disney has also been doing a poor job of monetizing the 20th Century Fox library they've purchased - they don't know what to DO with it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Respect is meaningless if your right to exist is being threatened. That's the point of the fight: the maintain the safe harbor and the promise that no one's livelihood is going to be annihilated by a SLAPP suit or the chilling effects thereof.