1 min per level spells and why they suck

[Krug]

Someone posted on the 3.5 changes in Dungeon #100 mag and said that now Bull's Str lasts 1 min/level. I have to agree with Monte's take on why this sucks.

http://www.montecook.com/diary12.html

Short entry this time. I hate spells with 1 minute/level durations. Spells that last 1 round/level basically last "one combat." Spells that last 10 minutes/level basically last through the better part of a day's encounters and battles (most adventurers tend to put themselves in danger about an hour a day, and then either travel or rest the rest of the day). Spells that last 1 hour/level basically last through the important part of a day.

But spells that last 1 minute/level last through a battle, and then encourage the group to race off to the next encounter before the spell runs out.

DM: "The last of the bugbears drops from your relentless assault. What do you do?"

Player One: "Let's search the bugbears for treasure, see if any of them are still alive for questioning later, and check if there are any secret doors in this room..."

Player Two: "No time, my spell has only got three and a half minutes left!"

Player Three: "Hey, you're right! Mine too. I fling open the door and race into the next room, looking for battle!"

Player One: "But..."

Player Two: "Go, go, go!"

As a DM, I tire of the whole "Go, go, go!" approach. It makes for sloppy and unrealistic play, and the game system encourages it. That's why you won't find hardly any 1 minute/level spells in Arcana Unearthed, and most of the few that are in there aren't really combat spells.

 

[Erithtotl]

Wow, that sucks. Granted, maybe Bull's Str was a little overpowered, but only a little. Maybe they should just make it 2 points instead of 1d4+1. But 1 minute a level is just stupid. This is the first 3.5 mod I've heard that I REALLY don't like.

 

[Mark]

While I understand the premise I do not agree that it is a bad thing to encourage moving from one combat to the next quickly in some cases. I disagree that the "Go, go, go" approach always makes for unrealistic play.

In certain situations, such as a medium to high level group in a cave complex held by lower level creatures, it makes sense to not only strike quickly, but to maintain a relentless assault from combat situation to combat situation to keep the defenders on their heels and unable to regroup or prepare.

Sometimes, as in that situation above, an encounter can actually consist of smaller groups strung out over a number of defensive positions and that is where that sort of duration really shines.

In an alternate example what of the PC group that defends an area as waves of attackers strike, fall back, regroup, re-assault. This is certainly a realistic battle strategies, isn't it?

I see nothing wrong with leaving more options open by having the one minute per level spell durations. Upping all one minute per level durations might make some spells overly powerful and reducing them to one round per level greatly decreasing the flexibility of the system. To have all spells compartmentalize combat into single encounters, followed by healing and buffing, then back to combat after a rest diminishes the options of both DM and players.

I think the neat little packages approach is rearing its head here. We know that each encounter is intended to balance with 20% of a party's resources being used to overcome it, but restricting the durations of spells to fewer potential categories just seems like overkill to achieve a balanced nirvana that would never truly come to pass anyway.

 

[Olive]

While I understand the premise I do not agree that it is a bad thing to encourage moving from one combat to the next quickly in some cases. I disagree that the "Go, go, go" approach always makes for unrealistic play.

In certain situations, such as a medium to high level group in a cave complex held by lower level creatures, it makes sense to not only strike quickly, but to maintain a relentless assault from combat situation to combat situation to keep the defenders on their heels and unable to regroup or prepare.

see i kinda agree with this although i'm not super into these spell's lasting 1 minute per level. i mean, if you were raiding a bugbears lair, would you stop to search each room for half an hour before going on? only in a static dungeon, where creatures don't react to noise...

surely the realistic thing to do is to clear the place out, and THEN look for the treasure?

 

[frankthedm]

I like this change.maybe dispell magic wount be a needed thing on evey character at high level.

 

[Mark]

see i kinda agree with this although i'm not super into these spell's lasting 1 minute per level. i mean, if you were raiding a bugbears lair, would you stop to search each room for half an hour before going on? only in a static dungeon, where creatures don't react to noise...

surely the realistic thing to do is to clear the place out, and THEN look for the treasure?

Yup. Static might be OK for a computer game where everything waits for the PCs to arive before reacting, but in a PnP RPG (aty least how I've always tried to best run them) the action should at least feel fluid. None of that "Stop, Recharge, Fight, Stop, Recharge, Fight" stuff that removing the options seems to imply is the only way to properly play.

To give yet a couple more examples... What of buffing up prior to a tournament when you might have to wait some short period of time before your turn in the fray? What of casting some spells as the group splits to assault from opposite sides of an encounter area?

This "neat little box" approach just seems to make things more artificial rather than more realistic.

 

[Piratecat]

I predict that the changes to buff spell duration will be one of the most controversial changes. It won't get more jarring than this, folks, at least not as far as I've seen. Considering that I fully like 95% of the changes, this is 2% of the remainder that I'm still undecided on.

Having read the 3.5 rules, it's clear to me that there is a concerted effort to emphasize class abilities over always-active bonuses derived from spells and magic items. Thus, skill-boosting items are toned way down (or increased in cost), and several spells that lasted for a long time in 3e are reduced as well. I happen to really like this trend as a DM, because no longer will everyone with spells and/or magic items out-rogue the rogue. As a player, though, I've flinched once or twice at the change in power level. I'm coming to grips with it, though, especially if everyone (PCs, NPCs, and monsters) are on a level playing field.

Another 2% of that remainder results from spells that I think have cool story uses, but which have been reduced in duration to limit their combat usage. Take polymorph, which has been talked about by Ed Stark. Now that it lasts one minute per level, it doesn't work as a disguise spell so well, and the PCs can't change into birds to go scout. I'll miss that, so there may be a house rule in my game (polymorph forms under a 4 str last for 10 minutes per level, not 1 minute.) We'll have to see.

Overall, I think the change in bull strength's duration is going to be a good thing. No longer will clerics cast all of their 2nd lvl spells at the beginning of each day. I'm okay with that.

 

[frankthedm]

To give yet a couple more examples... What of buffing up prior to a tournament when you might have to wait some short period of time before your turn in the fray?

Hmm considering tournaments are supossed to be one on one I would say this certainly helps reduce the foul play by use of magic problem.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I also disagree with monte that "1 rd/level' spells last for a combat.

1rd/level is basically for spells which will be cast during the combat, and will run the risk of expiring before the combat ends.

1 minute a level is for spells which are cast before the combat starts. They'll still tend to last for only a single combat, but they can be cast when the adventurers feel that there may be danger, as opposed to when there is an ongoing fight. Furthermore they'll remain working through a drawn-out fight. Monte may be surprised to learn that occasionally there are fights which last beyond 3 rounds - they occur in an interesting setting between evenly matched opponents who are using sensible and conservative tactics.

Finally - I can't see the problem with a sustained, ongoing blitz of a section of a dungeon. Personally, unless it's a massive complex, has a highly artificial layout (ie - full of trapped monsters who're regularly fed) or is massively spread out, I can't see how a dungeon can be cleared in any other way.

And of course out in the open, it's entirely possible that an encounter will be planned with a leadup that's measured in minutes.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

One more thing nobody has mentioned.

You'll note the spells are already like this in d20 Modern.

They last for 1 minute/level, but instead of giving a random bonus, they give a flat +4 points.

I always hated it when the mage got more CON points out of Endurance than the fighters who really needed it.

So... A good change!

Wulf