1 Sneak Attack per Round?

[Victim]

Not only does expert tactician only give melee attacks and works only if enemies in melee range, but magic weapon lacks Greater Magic Weapon's statement about affecting ammunition. Also, the surprise round only alows partial actions, thus the rogues can't use rapid shot.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Shouldn't you at least give the fighter their other 8-9 feats?

You didn't list levels, so I can't determine if your numbers are correct.

Well, they are both 20th level.

Now, post some calculations to test mine. I want to see this.

--Fun Spikey

PS I'm not saying I'm perfect, I just want to see if you can remember all the stuff I did since your post comes off as a little condescending.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Spikey,

Playing with that neato spreadsheet, it sure looks like a 20th level Fighter could dish out ~190 damage to AC 25 without breaking a sweat, ~150 if not hasted. I did not even figure in power attack (which I could not get to work right).

Of course, that same 20th level Fighter could have 75% Fortification and a bit less offensive magic. And then he would be a walking Rogue killer.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

neato spreadsheet

I'll take that as a complement. Thanks!

I screwed up flanking on the last version though. Made some HUGE changes and just notices that it isn't working.

Time to upload version 18. (as soon as I get to work tomorrow)

PS, How did you get 150 damage?

--Curious Spikey

 

[MasterOfHeaven]

Hmmm... well, I'm not familar enough with the numbers to do the averages and all, but I would think you get higher damages with Fighters by doing the following...

A Half-Orc Fighter with a +5 Orcan Double Axe with Shocking Burst and Keen modifiers, with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical and Improved TWF, Hasted with Boots of Speed, 20 Strength, +6 from Girdle Of Giant Strength, +4 from Tomes, so 30 Strength, using a Full Attack Action, could easily get that amount of damage, I would think. Again, I don't know how to average out the numbers, but that seems like it would at least equal a Rogues amount of damage with sneak attack.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Hmmm... well, I'm not familar enough with the numbers to do the averages and all, but I would think you get higher damages with Fighters by doing the following...

A Half-Orc Fighter with a +5 Orcan Double Axe with Shocking Burst and Keen modifiers, with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical and Improved TWF, Hasted with Boots of Speed, 20 Strength, +6 from Girdle Of Giant Strength, +4 from Tomes, so 30 Strength, using a Full Attack Action, could easily get that amount of damage, I would think. Again, I don't know how to average out the numbers, but that seems like it would at least equal a Rogues amount of damage with sneak attack.

If you have MS Excel, go to www.geocities.com/babcalc/index.html and you can check the numbers for yourself.

Usually TWF isn't a very good idea for straight fighters because it reduces their chance of hitting, the crit ranges suck, and double weapons don't do as much damage as a greatsword.

I'll do the numbers in second and get back to you.

--Working Spikey

 

[Darklone]

Multiple sneak attacks: Yes

I ran a campaign with nearly every player multiclassed with some rogue levels. Players spent a huge part of combat tumbling around and flanking. Well they tried.

A good fighter of their own level (and my villains are often one level higher) easily took out two fighter/rogues or barbarian/rogues.

In all your calculations, you forgot POWER ATTACK. The simple feat every fighter should have. Give the fighter extra damage that he hits as well as the enemy rogue and you can forget about sneak attacks.

As soon as you reach higher levels and everyone has multiple attacks, flanking becomes tougher. Rogues nearly always have to give up their multiple attacks to tumble far enough to flank due to 5ft steps of the enemies. While the enemy fighter still wastes the rogues with all his attacks. Add some nice Power attacks and flanking rogues with 5D6 extra damage from power attack pale in comparison. Without considering useful fighterfeats such as sunder, disarm or whatever.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Bobby the Cool Dude:
Str: 30
Orc Double Axe +5 Keen Flaming Shock /+5 Keen Flaming Shock
Two Weapon Fighting
Imp. 2 Weap Fighting
Ambidex
Power Attack: 8
Flanking
Hasted (Haste and boots of speed don't stack)
Weapon Focus
Exotic Weapon Prof
Weapon Spec
Imp. Critical

Damage per Round vs AC 25: 255.2

Same character with Greatsword
Power Attack: 10

Damage per Round vs AC 25: 259.65

 

[reapersaurus]

A Half-Orc Fighter with a +5 Orcan Double Axe with Shocking Burst and Keen modifiers, with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical and Improved TWF, Hasted with Boots of Speed, 20 Strength, +6 from Girdle Of Giant Strength, +4 from Tomes, so 30 Strength, using a Full Attack Action, could easily get that amount of damage, I would think. Again, I don't know how to average out the numbers, but that seems like it would at least equal a Rogues amount of damage with sneak attack.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
You have to give a fighter that much STR, 2 +8 weapons (i think), +4 from Tomes (how much is THAT?), and have them 5' away to do that much, just to equal a little pissant rogue's damage-output from multiple sneak attacks in a round??!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! that's quite funny.

Listen, people.

I can bring up examples, and speak reasonably, and SHOW you how abusive sneak attack is, while consistently pointing out that a rogue SHOULD be a SKILLS- character... but many of you are already set in your ways that there's NO WAY a rogue can be abusive.

It doesn't matter how many different ways a rogue can be dangerous in combat (for a SKILLS character), I really don't think that there would ever come a point where a "rogue-lover" player would think that the rogue had too much.
So it's really not worth too much time.

All _I_ know is that there's NO WAY a rogue should be able to do as much damage every single round as a min-maxed fighter, or even MORe damage than a lightning bolt does!
(5th level rogue/5th level assasin.. 6d6 sneak attack...3 attacks per round with either TWF or Rapid Shot... 18d6 for a 10th level character)

 

[kamosa]

I can bring up examples, and speak reasonably...

But that wouldn't be your style.

It doesn't matter how many different ways a rogue can be dangerous in combat (for a SKILLS character), I really don't think that there would ever come a point where a "rogue-lover" player would think that the rogue had too much.
So it's really not worth too much time.

All _I_ know is that there's NO WAY a rogue should be able to do as much damage every single round as a min-maxed fighter, or even MORe damage than a lightning bolt does!
(5th level rogue/5th level assasin.. 6d6 sneak attack...3 attacks per round with either TWF or Rapid Shot... 18d6 for a 10th level character)

A SKILLS CHARACTER?!?!?!

Are you kidding. Yes, they do get the best skill points, but when did that equate to being broken if they can do anything else besides use skills?

Sneak attack is a skill based attack. Most of the time I see it used, it involves either tumbling to a flank position or moving silently and hiding to try and get in position to attack.

As for doing as much damage as a fighter every round, I haven't found this to be true in actual game play. As someone pointed out, most times the rogue has to move more then 5 feet to get flank position. This limits them to one attack per round. This is in comparison to a fighter that doesn't have to flank to get full damage, so for the most part doesn't have to give up full attacks.

The other balancing factor that you seem intent on ignoring is hit points. Most straight rogues can't sit toe to toe with the high end monsters. In our game if they don't take down the monster in the first round or two, they go down. Even in D&D death is a pretty serious deterent to charging in to combat.

Most of the time I've seen the rogues picking their spots to sneak attack, spending time delaying their action until they can find a opportunity to sneak attack, or tactically maneuvering to try to get a flank. This is opposed to the fighter that just charges in without much thought to tactical position ("Move me to an enemy and I hit it for 34 points" )