1 square Diagonal Movement: Reaction from Players

[maggot]

Allow me to rephrase: "In the old rules, in certain situations, one or two fighters could block a line of approach; in the new rules, in those same situations they can't."

Several points:
1) This is no more relevant than saying that "in the old rules, high level characters got iterative attacks, in the new rules the don't." New rules, new tactics. In the new rules, it will be much easier for every one to see where creatures can move and will be able to prepare and respond accordingly. I concede that they will have to prepare and respond differently.

It is more relevant because you would think two fighters standing between a monster and a mage would form some kind of barrier. With 1-move diagonals you would be wrong.

This a world experience assumption that is much different than the iterative attacks which are a game assumption.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is going to create a problem for my group because we don't use minis most of the time, but occasionally we set them up when things get extra-complicated. With 1/1/1 diagonal movement, suddenly they'll be able to move in completely different ways when the minis are down, it will not take them more than 30 seconds to spot this. So I can choose between always using minis, or maybe we just start using string-measuring for everything, or just not use minis ever, but those are all annoying options.

If range on weapons is measured the same way, things will get even sillier, because again, we'll see people who are "obviously further away" being at the same "range in squares" as others.

I think this will be a good change for DMs with players who aren't very math/visual-puzzle-solving oriented, and who wont be constantly annoyed by it, but, that's only one out of my five "usual" players (a tactically-minded programmer, a munchkin-ish lawyer, a tactically-minded lawyer, a RP-oriented but VERY BRIGHT doctor and a journalist who is the one who won't work out how to abuse it, nor see it as silly, indeed, he'll like it).

It is more relevant because you would think two fighters standing between a monster and a mage would form some kind of barrier. With 1-move diagonals you would be wrong.

This a world experience assumption that is much different than the iterative attacks which are a game assumption.

Exactly, and what's ironic is, that fact is going to confuse the same people who LIKE the 1-1-1 movement, because they're the ones who tend to think in simpler, more real-world-ish terms, in my experience.

 

[Asmor]

When I look at hexes I can see where straight lines would lay. Being skilled at drawing I can put the lines where I want them. I can understand if this is a problem for some though. With regard to which squares exist and which ones do not (because of overlaying a straight line on the zigzag) is easy enough also, 1/2 or more counts as a hex.

Aexalon made a really phenomenal post on drawing square rooms on a hex map which really made me think.

I used to prefer hexes for outdoors and squares for indoors, but now I think I might try hexes for everything.

It's also really nice because, as he points out, you get 6 different directions (which he erroneously double-counts as 12, since lines on opposite sides of the hexagons have the same angle); 3 parallel to the sides of each hexagon, and 3 perpendicular to the radii of each hexagon, so you can make clean lines in any increment of 30 degrees.

 

[Lackhand]

This is going to create a problem for my group because we don't use minis most of the time, but occasionally we set them up when things get extra-complicated. With 1/1/1 diagonal movement, suddenly they'll be able to move in completely different ways when the minis are down, it will not take them more than 30 seconds to spot this.

?

I say again, good sir. ?

 

[I'm A Banana]

HEY!

Let's all do OCTOGONAL grids!

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

?

I say again, good sir. ?

If you're not using a grid, 30 feet is 30 feet. If I say an enemy is 30 feet away, it takes 30 feet of movement to get to him. If an enemy is 40 feet away, because he's to the side of the other enemy, then you can't reach him with 30 feet of movement. Except that in 4E, you can, with 1/1/1 diagonal movment, you can. I'm not going to draw the grid for you, you know how it works, and if you don't... well... ok, not much I can do about that.

If ranged weapons are also measured in squares, and have a 1-1-1 diagonal cost, then it becomes even more obvious a problem, as people who, clearly on the board are "further away" are actually equidistant.

 

[Arnwyn]

How do the other members of your playing group view the possibility that diagonal movement may be "simplified" with 4e? Do any of them have trouble with the existing rules? Are some fine with the current rules and are outraged by the suggestion of a change?

Almost by definition, EN Worlders who have been discussing the 4e changes tend to the non-casual wrt the rules; so feedback from the other players in your group would be something I'd find very interesting.

We actually discussed this some time ago when looking at grids and combats, and even "goofed around" (for lack of a better term) with 1-1-1 diagonal movement.

It was a failure. The increase in speed of play was so marginal as to be virtually non-existent for us, and it was too versimilitude-busting for the players to get any enjoyment out of it.

Needless to say, it's not an improvement for my players.

 

[HeinorNY]

If you're not using a grid, 30 feet is 30 feet. If I say an enemy is 30 feet away, it takes 30 feet of movement to get to him. If an enemy is 40 feet away, because he's to the side of the other enemy, then you can't reach him with 30 feet of movement. Except that in 4E, you can, with 1/1/1 diagonal movment, you can. I'm not going to draw the grid for you, you know how it works, and if you don't... well... ok, not much I can do about that.

I draw it for you
On a gridless game, the red monster can attack characters 30 ft away from him. So he can attack the blue guy but not the green guy.
If you put a square grid below the minis, now the red monster can also reach the green guy.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The only place I have dealt with a diagonal = side geometry was in the Civ game - and I have to say I found it very noticable and jarring. So it's not something I'm likely to adopt.

While it's easy to say "you can always houserule it" I enjoy pickup games and one shots and a system that I can just say "we're playing X" is better for me than a system where I say "we're playing X but by this list of houserules".

(go hexes!)

 

[Warbringer]

HEY!
Let's all do OCTOGONAL grids!

Actually, ccording to the podcast squares best thought of as circles, so not far off!