10th Level Hunter of the Dead, Enervation & Energy Drain

[Lord Pendragon]

Note that the Hunter of the Dead special ability specifically says that the HotD cannot lose levels due to energy draining effects. It does not say that the HotD is immune to energy draining effects. Big difference.

IMO, a Hunter of the Dead can indeed be effected by Energy Drain. However the negative levels can never result in actual level loss.

 

[Darklone]

This means that he could be killed if he gains as many negative levels as he has character levels in your interpretation? Well ok... but I don't think he would come back as undead then ?

 

[Geoff Watson]

I think the Sealed Life ability shoud make the Hunter of the Dead immune to energy drain, including negative levels. (I would make an exception for stuff like Unholy weapons.)

At high levels, the actual level loss is a minor problem, since Restoration and Greater Restoration should be readily available.
The negative levels are a much bigger problem (penalties on most rolls, losing spells, dying and becoming undead).

Piratecat's interpretation makes the ability nearly useless.

Geoff.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I think the Sealed Life ability shoud make the Hunter of the Dead immune to energy drain, including negative levels.

Maybe it should. But if they'd meant immune, they'd have said immune. They didn't. Instead they said "cannot lose levels"--so that's the actual rule.

Originally posted by Darklone
This means that he could be killed if he gains as many negative levels as he has character levels in your interpretation? Well ok... but I don't think he would come back as undead then ?

By my reading of the ability, yes--he can be killed by negative levels. There is nothing in the ability that says "cannot be killed by Energy Drain" or "immune to Energy Drain." In my game, I believe I'd house rule it so that a HotD could not be killed by negative levels (so long as the hp loss didn't kill him). But that would be a House Rule.

As far as the coming back as an undead, upon rereading the class description and abilities in DotF, I can't find any reason why he wouldn't come back as an undead. However, I might rule that the HotD could commit suicide during the transformation (before becoming fully evil but just after becoming undead,) and thus invoke True Death.

 

[Darklone]

(so long as the hp loss didn't kill him).

Hitpoints loss? Enervation causes no hitpoints loss... At least, that's what the gurus here answered when I asked that question a looong time ago.

 

[Nail]

<From Defenders of the Faith>
Sealed Life (Su): Upon reaching 10th level, a hunter of the dead cannot lose levels due to energy draining effects (although death still results in level loss, as do other level- or experience draining penalties).

It's that last bit that causes the confusion. What does "(although death still results in level loss, as do other level- or experience draining penalties") mean?

"although death still results in level loss"

Got that. If you die and are ressurected with a lesser spell, you lose a level. No problem.

"as do other level- or experience draining penalties"

Whaaaa? "As do" what? That makes absolutely no grammatical sense at all. It seems to imply that the HotD is affected by the penalties associated with energy draining effects.....but if you read it word for word, it doesn't really say that. That phrase actually refers to "death" rather than "energy draining effects".

In other words, "death results in other level- or experience- draining penalties." Which, of course, is not at all true, nor could they have possibly meant to imply that.

Where's an English major when you need one?

FWIW, and IMHO, Sealed Life is whimpy enough without nerfing it further. The HotD should be immune to any sort of energy draining, and be completely unable to gain "negative levels" through any means.

Including weilding unholy items. After all, he's got other sources of prohibition on that......his god, for one.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

I too understand it the same way Piratecat does. The Hunter of the Dead can gain negative levels, but after 24 hours (i think) they simply go away.

As for the inintelligible parenthesis, i think it means you still lose a level for dying, and you can lose levels by other means, say by reading a tome of horrendous evil (whatever the name of the magic item) or lose experience by making magic items, having your familiar squashed into a bloody pulp or casting certain spells...

Maitre D

 

[Shallown]

I think this matter can be looked at from the point of veiw of rules versus intent. I think the Intent was toprotect the Hunter fairly completely. Though I agree the wording indicates otherwise. I would go with the intent. I don't think it is serious enough to figure out for each circumstnace it may be in question.I like my stuff a little simpler and reserve the right to be wrong and change my mind if it proves too powerful.


Later

 

[Nail]

I too understand it the same way Piratecat does. The Hunter of the Dead can gain negative levels, but after 24 hours (i think) they simply go away.

I admit that reasonable people can dissagree about this.

Think of the scope of the HotD PrC. He (or she) is really good at combatting the UD. But that's all he's good at. And at the higher levels, you're just as likely, if not more so, to run into powerful Outsiders, Dragons, and Magical Beasts. Against them, you're less effective than a fighter...after all, he's at least got the feats.

So I'm arguing that in his area of expertise, he should be more than just "good". And given the level of the ability we're talking about, it shouldn't be just some window-dressing. It should be exceptional.

Given that clerics are capable of repairing level loss at this "power level", saying that the HotD is immune only to the "level loss" part of the attack is...well, whimpy and superfluous. This is much less that a "poor mans" duplicate of Greater Restoration.

The power should be more than that, and I belive that the rules can be interpreted to support my position: HotD do not take the penalties associated with energy draining attacks, because they don't loose levels/gain negative levels from these attacks.

YMMV.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

So I'm arguing that in his area of expertise, he should be more than just "good". And given the level of the ability we're talking about, it shouldn't be just some window-dressing. It should be exceptional.

The HotD is already exceptional at fighting undead. He doesn't need immunity to energy-draining attacks to make him so. And high-level abilities aren't always superpowers. The high level paladin is stuck with Remove Disease, so I'd say that immunity to level loss is still pretty good.

Originally posted by Shallown

I think this matter can be looked at from the point of veiw of rules versus intent. I think the Intent was toprotect the Hunter fairly completely. Though I agree the wording indicates otherwise. I would go with the intent. I don't think it is serious enough to figure out for each circumstnace it may be in question.I like my stuff a little simpler and reserve the right to be wrong and change my mind if it proves too powerful.

I disagree. I think the intent was to protect the HotD from level loss due to energy draining attacks which is, coincidentally, exactly what it says.

Originally posted by Darklone

Hitpoints loss? Enervation causes no hitpoints loss... At least, that's what the gurus here answered when I asked that question a looong time ago.

From the definition of Negative Level in the PH glossary, 2nd-printing, pg 280:

For each negative level gained, a creature suffers a -1 penalty to all skill checks, ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, -5 hp plus a -1 effective level penalty.