$125,000 in fines for D&D pirates? Help me do the math...

[Harlekin]

Whether you make $50,000 (approx. average income in US) / year ($26/hour) or 100,000/year, a judgement of $125,000 is alot of money to pay out and will probably take most people many years to pay off. That's disproportionate to the infraction.

I agree that it is on the high side, but for most other property crimes in that range, the defendants would probably looked at jail time (with probation but still). While having to pay 15% of your wage every month screws up your life, I think having a previous conviction on your record is even worse. So in the end it's probably fair-ish (and that's as good as the law ever gets imo).

 

[Harlekin]

Statements like this are one reason why I took that self imposed vow of non-participation- it was always brought up, regardless of evidence, usually by the same posters. Which is why, after this response, I'll go back to that vow.

Copyright infringement is a form of theft by definition. As I've posted numerous times on this website in countless other piracy threads, the definition of theft in Black's Law Dictionary includes this language:



One of the primary benefits of IP- like any form of property- is the ability to control who can obtain it and at what price. By infringing on a copyright, you're "exerting unauthorized control" over the IP holder's property since you're not meeting the IP holder's conditions for transfer of the right to use it (IOW, you didn't pay him). You are "taking property without the owner's consent."

(In case you're wondering, there is settled case law stating that "exerting unauthorized control" doesn't even require movement of the property at all. And that involved physical goods: the locking of a door behind which sat- untouched- the property that was to be removed later that day.)

And since a definition already exists, most laws dealing with some form of theft don't bother stating "X is theft." They accept it as a basic tenet of the law that needs not be reiterated, and go on from there.

The statement I quoted above was in response to a question to the effect of "if its a theft, why isn't it enforced by criminal law?"

The answer to that, is that sometimes it is. If someone commits a homicide, he is open to both criminal (murder, involuntary homicide, etc.)- possibly at the Federal or State level- and civil prosecution (wrongful death).

Similarly, there are both criminal and civil penalties in IP law, but the law prefers that the civil lawsuits proceed first because, among other reasons, whatever moneys that are awarded go directly to the aggrieved party. IOW, the IP holder. In a criminal case, those fines go to the Feds because you're being brought into court by the Feds. I mean, its all well and good to send an infringer to jail and fine him, but it doesn't "make the IP holder whole." He's still out his due profits, and he can't send his creditors to sue the jailed IP thief for the $$$.

Ultimately, though, there will be no legal solution to the problem- the only real solution will come via a change in the ethical viewpoints of would-be infringers.

And just so there is no misunderstanding: I have no issue with IP being released in digital formats. Its not for me, but its ideal for so many segments of the market- both sellers and consumers. But the only time its legal for someone to download someone's song or book for free is when that someone grants permission. Downloading of music isn't bad, its downloading music without paying the asking price (whatever that may be).

There are all kinds of artists who are trading free or cheap downloads for exposure- its being used as a form of advertising. And that's fine because they're expressly permitting their work to be used thus.

But to simply take someone's work without permission? Not legal, and not ethical.

We should save this somewhere and autopost it in every thread about piracy.

 

[georgegad]

By making an IP freely available without permission, you are depriving someone of the benefit of his property.

I think you are trying to give the word benefit a whole new meaning. The publishers are still the only persons allowed to print a hardcopy of the book for sale. Trying to overreach their control will only destroy any remaining respect i have for the industry.

As i see it it has always been the standard that gaming materials were free to reproduce for personal use. Having the downloaded PDF has alowed my group to do that and i have to thank the uploaders.

Even tho i know every single person at the table has pdf copies there is still also 2-3 hardbacks of each book as well. I dont find any argument that there was lost sales value valid. If it were true i wouldnt have a stack of hardbacks purchased after i had downloaded them.

What will stop me buying stuff? My favorite industry becoming a greedy moneygrabbing industry that cares more for profits than the quality of my game sessions.

They aren't some faceless executive. Many of us have met these guys in person.

But we're still going to stand here and try to defend piracy? Damn, that's cold.

As much as i respect that, i dont think they remember you as fondly.
When they went back from that conference/whatever they talked about that charming Mr Hussar. More likely they were talking about sales numbers and planing their next marketing event. And thats fine, they are a business.

Watching the industry it just isnt the same "friends together" community it used to be. No, i have little sympathy. Rather i feel you should stop giving them the same respect we gave the old guard, they havent earnt it. Its just a business now like any other, the people you mentioned are payed PR reps. Although i am sure they are also perfectly pleasant people, if they got another job someone would replace them and would be just as pleasant.

If i thought for a minute D&D was not making a profit i might pass a hat around and get some donations. But since it seems to me it is making money, then suing people just makes the whole business look petty.

-------

As a gamer i already spend practically all my extra money on gaming. Having an almost monopoly on gaming WOTC already get the lions share of that. To say that i can not access the materials i have not payed for will not gain them any extra money it will only limit the amount of material i can use for my gaming.
Since my primary priority's are 1. gaming and 2. Destroying utterly all who stand between me and gaming, i have little choice but to declare war against the entire corrupt system. All roll initiative or i am taking a surprise round.

 

[haakon1]

I think you have a flawed understanding of both the Constitution and of the weighting of penalties to offset the inability to catch all those who commit an offense.

Back at you.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think you are trying to give the word benefit a whole new meaning. The publishers are still the only persons allowed to print a hardcopy of the book for sale.

so they think it is work $30 to charge, you think it should be free (for what they legaly charge $30) and you don't see that as a benfit THEY have, to set the price...

As i see it it has always been the standard that gaming materials were free to reproduce for personal use. Having the downloaded PDF has alowed my group to do that and i have to thank the uploaders.

Personal use is not the same as giving it to every tom dick and harry...you may use it as personal use (I have no reason to belive otherwise) but the people being sued went WAY beyond that...

What will stop me buying stuff? My favorite industry becoming a greedy moneygrabbing industry that cares more for profits than the quality of my game sessions.

DO you really belive sueing people that are giving away what you charge for is moneygrabbing....

If i thought for a minute D&D was not making a profit i might pass a hat around and get some donations. But since it seems to me it is making money, then suing people just makes the whole business look petty.

so a company fallen on hard time (Lets take rifts as our example here) can sue. So you would stand up and support rifts where they doing this???

 

[georgegad]

s.. and you don't see that as a benfit THEY have, to set the price...

If it is or not is again not the issue and is merely twisting of words. Copyright law is intended to stop one company from selling another company's products. It has no meaning to the general public and is not intended to.

Personal use is not the same as giving it to every tom dick and harry...you may use it as personal use ...

But every tom dick and harry who downloaded it does have a claim to personal use and the uploading individual has been kind enough to facilitate that need for (i assume) no financial gain and probably at personal cost. they should not be punished for filling a role that nobody else was filling.

DO you really belive sueing people that are giving away what you charge for is moneygrabbing....

Yes, wholeheartedly. Also the flipside, charging for what is freely available is also a horrible business that is also all too popular. An honest business with an honest product does not need to resort to such things.

so a company fallen on hard time (Lets take rifts as our example here) can sue. So you would stand up and support rifts where they doing this???

Who would anyone want to sue anyone? It is just a pointless waste of time for everyone but the lawyers, only a lawyer will tell you differently.

What i said was i might make a donation.
Is there a "save rifts" fund? post a link if there is and we can get it some publicity.

 

[delericho]

Obscenely large fines (see the RIAA) don't work (to stop all pirates, they do deter an unquantifiable number). People still pirate stuff. Ignoring it doesn't 'work' in that you'll have X amount of lost sales. This being an unquantifiable number. Plus as a creator/coworker of creators/employee of said rights-holding company there's a level of irritation caused when you see something you worked on being distributed for free.

Internet taxation to distribute the money to 'those who get pirated' isn't going to work (see CD-Rs in Canada). Likewise excessive computer monitoring will just turn into a tech race between the pirate and the companies being paid by rights-holders to do so.

There's no easy solution on this one. And all those people saying 'companies should find a way round it' might as well say 'someone should invent cold fusion'.

Fundamentally, the business model has to change. Companies have to recognise that their products will be made available online, and will be appropriated by people for what those people think is a reasonable price. They also have to recognise that some piracy is inevitable, so they'd be better placed making some money from the online offering, but accepting some online wastage. Oh, and finally, they're going to have to recognise that their products lose their value very quickly - if they can't recoup their investments within a couple of months, they're probably never going to do so.

What this means:

1) Everything that it is feasible to make available online must be made available online. If WotC don't make the PHB2 available for sale as a PDF, it doesn't mean it won't be available, just that they won't be getting paid.

2) Prices must be reasonable. Sure, WotC have every right to sell a PDF of PHB2 for $40, but the voice of the market appears to be fairly loud on this one: people won't pay. But they might pay $20, or $10, or $5, and depending on the price and customer numbers, that might end up more profitable for WotC. (Ideally, they should also provide a discount for people who own the physical book, or even just waive the charge entirely.)

3) To be honest, I think a subscription-based online library may be the way to go. Rather than ask people to pay even $5 for the book of the month, WotC might be better placed offering access to all the D&D books (right back to OD&D) for a subscription of $10 a month, probably as an adjunct to a DDI subscription. (New books should be added to this as soon as they hit the stores, of course.)

4) To keep people paying, there needs to be a value-add that is not just the books. As I said above, I think they should tie it to the DDI, some of which requires an ongoing sub to be useful. Perhaps they need to tie access to their online communities to the subscription. Perhaps they need to offer access to the designers. I don't know. If they don't offer enough here, then they'll see lots of people subscribing for 1 month, downloading everything, and then walking away. (I suppose what they could do is delay access to the library until you have either been subscribed for X months, or until you sign up for a sub lasting those X months.)

(The equivalent with movies would be some sort of cinema pass, in addition to access to downloads. The equivalent with music would be discounts on concert tickets, or something similar.)

All that said, I don't think it's feasible. Disney will want the right to repackage and resell "Sleeping Beauty" and the rest every seven years, and it's very hard to fault them for wanting this (there's obviously a demand). However, if they refuse to change, they are going to have to accept that there's going to be some loss to piracy, and that that loss is probably going to increase over time. Furthermore, they should not be allowed to simply buy a 20-year extension to copyright every time "Steamboat Willie" is about to enter the Public Domain - this is a major factor in our IP laws not getting the revision that they need.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

No, the gain is these feeders are no longer feeding illegal pdfs to torrents.
That is a Karmic benefit. As soon as WotC catches the rest of the feeders no new PDFs will be on torrents.
Problem solved. Might take years though. After all, without the feeders the beast starves and dies (no one can dl something that isn't available from feeders).
Whether there is a financial benefit is another matter.

You're acting like there's ten people in the world who publish the books online.

Here's the thing - if I wanted to, I could download the full character builder and sheet viewer and it's newest update. I could do it in minutes. And I could do it multiple times, each time both files coming from two entirely different sources.

Piracy isn't going to end. Period. Full stop. These deterrents do not work. Again, period, full stop. Does it suck when your product is pirated? Yes. I've seen products that I've worked on, and that friends of mine have worked on, at easy to access torrents. And it sucks a lot, because your publisher doesn't care how popular your game is with the doesn't pay for the bloody thing crowd, the care about sales.

So the question is, what do you do about it?

Suing like this doesn't stop the piracy. Doesn't even slow it down, not in the slightest. So, here's the question: What did this lawsuit accomplish?

1) It made the lives of a few people very, very miserable, potentially for a very, very long time.

2) It created internet debate.

3) Some people became more aware at how easy it is to download 4e products.

So...was this a good move?

 

[georgegad]

Fundamentally, the business model has to change. Companies have to .....

Liked your post. Time will tell in the end and things are rarely as predicted.
And while i have been heavy to WotC for the last few posts they are attempting to make changes in that direction. The increased attention to minis and boards will ensure a real item of substance to sell when the sales from hardcover books dwindles into a niche market. Online campaigns and character storage seem to be the way of the future and D&D are making some decent moves to try to stay relevant.
I dont know if i am going to like this brave new world or not but it seems there is no turning back.

 

[Primal]

Personal use is not the same as giving it to every tom dick and harry...you may use it as personal use (I have no reason to belive otherwise) but the people being sued went WAY beyond that...

I don't know how US copyright laws work, but it would perfectly legal around here to share a copy (whether a digital copy on a DVD/USB/CD-ROM/Etcetera, or a photocopied book) with your family and friends (this is explicitly defined in my country's law; a gaming session among a circle of friends at someone's house counts "private use"). However, you cannot pass on the copy; everyone may freely use it in private (for example, at your house) but cannot make a copy of it (but see below).

If you absolutely want a digital copy of a book without paying for it and you don't own a scanner, there's a legal way to get it. If your local library has a scanner, you could legally scan every RPG book in their collection and save up to 3 copies of every book as PDFs (on a USB/DVD/Etcetera). As I said above, you could let your friends freely use these copies; for example, you could save a copy on three different USBs and pass them around for use during a gaming session. It would also be possible that your whole gaming group participated in scanning the copy at the library, and made their own copies on their own USBs (the library cannot store the file on any hard drive, however).

As I said, I don't know how this works in the US, but I suspect this process would be legal over there, too. However, as I also said above, under NO circumstances could you distrubute any of these copies in any way.