1421

[Azlan]

This is one of my favourite "things that happened that Europeans have conveniently left out of history".

Bah. I dislike seeing Western Civilization being bashed for the sake of political-correctness. The discovery of America by the Chinese was not conveniently left out of history.

The Chinese may have indeed discovered America in 1421, but so what of it? In fact, there are historians who believe that the Vikings discovered America before the Chinese, and that a sixth-century Irish monk, Brendan the Navigator, discovered it even before the Vikings -- but so what of that? Everyone knows it was the discovery made by Columbus that really made the difference.

The Chinese discovered many things first, including printing and gunpowder. But there's a good reason why they didn't get much world-wide credit for it: There was a long period in history where China closed all its borders and became isolationist and far too suppressive over its scholars, inventors, and discoverers. Not only that, but most of their invetions/discoveries did not go much further than the initial stages, and many were eventually relegated as curiosities or forbidden.

 

[officeronin]

(Quickly hides huge collection of orc porn under bed)

Well-thumbed copies of "Elf-Lust" and "Goblin Girl"?

The Chinese trade fleets did not have great impact on world events, because they didn't stay. The Chinese had a mindset that the rest of the world was full of barbarians, and that China had nothing to gain from them. Their motives were to demonstrate their power and wealth for their own gratification -- like the rich man who makes a show of dropping a coin into the cup of a beggar.

The Europeans had different motives, be they "elbow room", the "white man's burden" of converting of the savage, or plain greed. As a result, they stayed, and had a big impact.

There is a great deal of evidence that the ancient Phonecians visited South America -- even if they were just lost traders. Again, the evidence is mostly depictions of bearded white men in art.

OfficeRonin

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I have heard this before and it always astonishes me that one could write a book about the Chinese doing so much when right at the beginning they talk about the Chinese destroying all records of these events and supressing the knowledge.

Either they did a very lousy job and spin back then or some writers have VERY vivid imaginations.

 

[Mark]

I have just discovered this thread!

Will I have any impact on it, or will it impact me?

As pointed out above, it is the result(s) of a discovery that give it importance, for good or ill.

Still, there's a certain arrogance that comes with the claim of discovery of a land rich with culture (and more) that never ceases to amaze me. How many flags need to be planted on someone else's soil before it is sufficiently discovered?

The Europeans discovered a lot of places, it would seem. Discovered em' real good. I don't think that discovery without exploitation should be discounted as insignificant if the proof of the discovery can be verified.

 

[coyote6]

Hmm, makes me want to try the kind of fantasy campaign Ken Hite occasionally talks about.

I'm seeing an adventuring party -- something like a Chinese diplomat (who was perhaps raised by Shaolin monks, of course), a Seneca guide, a Norseman from a lost Vinland colony, a disreputable Italian mercenary, maybe a physician/alchemist from Arabia or India, a wizard/blacksmith from one of the African kingdoms, and a Polynesian sailor. They're, let's see, seeking a colony of serpentmen that exists somewhere in the interior of North America; they have a cryptic map that warns of a coming apocalypse -- something about unspeakable entities from beyond the stars being released. All of which is, of course, based on visions from Dreamtime that the diplomat was told about back in Australia.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Bah. I dislike seeing Western Civilization being bashed for the sake of political-correctness. The discovery of America by the Chinese was not conveniently left out of history.

The Chinese may have indeed discovered America in 1421, but so what of it? In fact, there are historians who believe that the Vikings discovered America before the Chinese, and that a sixth-century Irish monk, Brendan the Navigator, discovered it even before the Vikings -- but so what of that? Everyone knows it was the discovery made by Columbus that really made the difference.

If Columbus is the most important discoverer, why are both continents named after Amerigo Verspuci, who came after Columbus? Columbus being given credit is the result of political correctness in past centuries. I'm not the only one who's ever wanted to rewrite history.

Also archeological evidence exists for Chinese contact with the west coast of North America in the 5th century AD.

The question is do you want history that's accurate or history that's written by the winners?

 

[Azlan]

If Columbus is the most important discoverer, why are both continents named after Amerigo Verspuci, who came after Columbus?

Columbus was the first of the Europeans from that time period to discover America. And shortly after Columbus came many other Europeans, which collectively had such a major impact on human history, it still reverberates to this day.

The question is do you want history that's accurate or history that's written by the winners?

History that's accurate, of course. But I also want history that matters.

Oh, I find the Chinese discovery of America interesting; fascinating, even; but, really, it's just a footnote in history, since not much of anything came out of it.

 

[Steve Jung]

If Columbus is the most important discoverer, why are both continents named after Amerigo Verspuci, who came after Columbus? Columbus being given credit is the result of political correctness in past centuries. I'm not the only one who's ever wanted to rewrite history.
/snip/

According to a couple websites I found http://library.thinkquest.org/J002678F/vespucci.htm and http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa050498.htm, Vespucci was the first European to realize the Americas were seperate continents from Asia. Columbus apparently never did. A German mapmaker read about Vespucci's journeys and named the continents after him.

The expeditions before Columbus didn't last long in the Americas. According to Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond, the Vikings didn't last in Newfoundland because the ships had to come from Greenland which could barely support itself. The Vikings also couldn't compete with the Indians and Eskimos already there. Eventually the Newfoundland and Greenland colonies disappeared. (pp. 370–373)

 

[Tonguez]

Columbus was the first of the Europeans from that time period to discover America. And shortly after Columbus came many other Europeans, which collectively had such a major impact on human history, it still reverberates to this day.

Columbus did NOT discover America - he crashed into some Islands that he thought was Asia

I'm seeing an adventuring party -- something like a Chinese diplomat (who was perhaps raised by Shaolin monks, of course), a Seneca guide, a Norseman from a lost Vinland colony, a disreputable Italian mercenary, maybe a physician/alchemist from Arabia or India, a wizard/blacksmith from one of the African kingdoms, and a Polynesian sailor. They're, let's see, seeking a colony of serpentmen that exists somewhere in the interior of North America; they have a cryptic map that warns of a coming apocalypse -- something about unspeakable entities from beyond the stars being released. All of which is, of course, based on visions from Dreamtime that the diplomat was told about back in Australia.

Hey this could be fun! Hmmm I wonder GURPS perhaps...

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

How many flags need to be planted on someone else's soil before it is sufficiently discovered?

I'll go ask my ex and get back to you.

If the chinese stopped by, why didn't they stay? North America was almost nothing but free real estate. I guess it was too far away from the action.
Location. Location. Location.