D&D 5E 18/7/2013 D&D Next Q&A: Feat Progression, Bonus Feats & Requirements

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
One of the things that demonstrates different D&D interpretation styles is how people view character customization. See, I look at it and see:
Well, of course there are differetn opinions on what customization means, for me (and I venture other fiddlers out there) cutomization is about the individuality of your character and to have full control of it.

1. Start with a race (from a half dozen or more choices), ability scores (with a lot of customization), background (of probably dozens of choices), and alignment (if desired)
Races do indeed provide a baseline of characteristics, however they only bring out an archetype (or stereotype) to play for or against, the subrace being only a pretext to jsutiffy variable bonuses, though on the most recent ed your character's race only works to enforce sterotypes and get a 20 on your prime attribute. No matter how many, Backgrounds won't necessarilly have what it is neede to express the character you want, and will carry some extra [unwanted] baggage and will bring out at best a perk or two. And on ability scores, they aren't really a customization tool unless you get the ability to get a 5 or a 3 on a score you deem critical to be low.

2. Add an adventuring class (of which you will have around a dozen or more choices), and equip your character as desired
Again class is only a baseline, and there are many common class-race combos. And mundane equipment isn't exactly something that defines a character, more an extension of said character¿s individuality.

3. Add a subclass (of which you will have multiple choices for each class), either immediately or in the first few levels
With the exception of cleric domains, subclasses so far are more situational crunch with empty flavor or the actual implementation of your class -like the warden and blackguard, or the promised warlord subclass- they are bundled together for better support because the design team didn't consider them worthy enough of being full-fledged classes on their own. SO they don't really bring out that much to the table, just are a way to actually have 30+ classes were it seems there are only 10 or something. Each of theses actual classes is a baseline on itself with common combos for races

4. Then add a feat/specialty (of which you will have many choices) at about level 4 or 5
The point is so fat feats are pointing out to be huge power boosts mainly directed to combat and flooded with unwanted baggage, no longer the fine tunning the used to be. No more my wizard knows how to fight with a sword, or shinning in the dark, spare enemies regardless of who deals the finishing blow, being truly dedicated to singing, or using your blood to heal. while there seem to be plans to gain additional proficiencies via stat grinding during actual downtime, that kind of things become harder to emulate when starting at higher levels and as such are at the whims of the DM, not something one can be confident will actually happen

5. Multiclass if you want to
It remains to be seen how flexible multiclassing will be. although multiclassing its a mean to evolve organically a character, which is a very different axis from character customization.

6. Add additional feats as you level up
With the way things are shaping out, that only means more unused extra bits, hardly good for customization

And I think, "how is that not enough character customization?"
I just don't see "I don't want to be like every other fighter" as a valid criticism, since it is rarely accurate. It simply sounds more compelling than saying, "I don't want to be like every other Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10, chaotic good, wood elf, giant killer ranger with a priest background who wields shortswords, a longbow, and throwing daggers, and prefers studded leather armor. And 4-6 highly flavorful suites of special features that I can select isn't going to cut it." Really? This is a class-based system. There is going to be plenty of customization for a class-based system. Any more customization and you hardly have a class-based system.
Actually what you describe here doesn't differ too much from the cookie cutter builds one chan find on charop, except for the background which will only bring out a slight perk an nothing more. A Litmus test for customization: if after going manually for every single option available to you in order to translate your cahracter concept into a palyable character you can find your actuall build sans ability scores (or worse those too) posted on a random forum out there, there isn't as much customization as you'd think, class based or not.

I love skill-based systems. D&D is the only game that I actually like a class-based system in. So I find arguments that amount to saying, "that's too much like a class-based system" rather foreign to my preferences.

Play what you like, it just makes me shake my head like a boat was missed somewhere.
not necessarilly, class is a tool, a great tool whihc helps define your mechanical role on a party and to balance it, however embracing that doens't encesarilly implies I want to play the same character over and over and over with differetn dressing each time. D&D in particualr is very good for customizing, I also like stat grinders (I find the more realistic), but they are very limited on customization and the other alternative -full point buy- isn't that palatable either, it isn't a matter of all or nothing you know. Just because I find a class system the most useful of th ebunch, doens't mean I'm necesarilly looking for someone rigid and set in stone.
 

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SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I don't want all my characters to have a 20 in their important score. All my fighters characters should not have the same strength, wizards same int, etc.

That would disturb me for some reason.
 

heptat

Explorer
I don't want all my characters to have a 20 in their important score. All my fighters characters should not have the same strength, wizards same int, etc.

That would disturb me for some reason.

I agree with you. I thought that was one of the good things about D&D3+...you could have a Strength of 12 and you got a +1! Compare that with AD&D1e... And someone with a Strength of 18 should be (IMHO) one of the strongest people in the world (99.9 percentile), maybe looking like The Rock or Arnie in his heyday. But everyone pushing toward 20..definitely a smell (for me).

OTOH I can understand that we're playing a gonzo fantasy game and as our characters go up in level they become very powerful in the world around them and perhaps their scores going up like this is another measure of how much better they are than an average joe shovelling sh*t with a shovel.

Maybe D&D Next should give us options for this sort of thing? haha
 

While I agree about not all fighters having a 20 Str, I think that's inevitable if you allow stat buying instead of stat rolling. There's a level of character optimization that is simply obvious instead of studied.
 

20 in the primary stat by level 20 is something that's going to be expected. Just because the system is different from what there is before, doesn't mean it's the end of the character optimization boards. In fact I feel they should make character optimization an easy thing, and build the system with those players in mind already.
 

Klaus

First Post
I don't want all my characters to have a 20 in their important score. All my fighters characters should not have the same strength, wizards same int, etc.

That would disturb me for some reason.

Well, you don't *need* a 20 in your prime stat, thanks to the bounded accuracy. Some characters will go for that prime 20, others will prefer to take feats.
 

Sadrik

First Post
These feats run the risk of being over designed. What I mean by that is while the game designer's concept of what it means to be good at heavy weapon fighting and what a players interpretation of what it means to be good at heavy weapon fighting can be two different things. Additionally, the designer may have 2 abilities that are an excellent fits and then does not have another that is a perfect fit so just throws in a neat ability that may fit but the ability may fit in many more situations than the specific feat but now players are tied to that ability representing that feat.

I am more in favor of feats being smaller bits, with more customization, rather than bigger triple feats. Also, I am in favor of class features being made into feats. I realize some don't like this approach but that would be my preferred approach for a host of reasons, namely multiclassing and level dipping. Not the only way to skin a cat though.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
How much will taking a -5 matter in a game which (supposedly) has flatter math?

I'm trying to get a feel for if these feats will be on equal footing with ability score increases.

I think that is close to the equivalent bonus for disadvantage, as calculated by someone on these boards a long time ago.

Using that ability could therefore grant disadvantage instead of -5, but that would reveal the main limitation of the (dis)advantage mechanic: that they don't stack. Therefore using this feat would be the default everytime you already have disadvantage for another reason, resulting in getting the bonus for no additional cost.
 

Warbringer

Explorer
[MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION]

It's actually closer to a flat 3.5 difference, but really hurts when you need 17 to succeed, where probability of success falls from 20% to about 4% because of disadvanatage.
 

DonAdam

Explorer
I for one will not miss fiddly feats.

If I have to make choices over small abilities, I want them to be over a limited list of options. Otherwise, the cost of finding the right option (whether for fiction or gamist reasons) rapidly exceeds the benefits.
 

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