D&D General 1991 Dark Sun Setting Overview and Speculation

My position is that 5E Dark Sun should present a version of the setting that doesn’t necessarily take into account the post-box set additions but at the same time strives to be compatible with them allowing those who did enjoy the later aspects to add it back in.

my position on the dark sun novels being an integral part of the setting differs to my Dragonlance position. The novels were never as central in fan minds in Dark Sun as they were for Dragonlance.
 

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I guess we will see a reboot, like Ravenloft, but with littles touchs of ambiguity. It is not only about to keep or change the previous canon, but if they should add space for new elements, for example the PC races from the Expanded Psionic Handbook, or gladiators with ki "martial maneuvers".

Other option may be to allow a spin-off recovering some ideas from the setting Jackandor.

And we can't forget the possibility of a future "infinite crisis", a mega-event altering all the official D&D worlds.
 


I am in nearly the same boat as the OP.
We always wanted to play Dark Sun, but other than playing the computer game it broke down after very few sessions.

Probably the rules of psionics and atteibutes were somehow not working as we expected it and also the type of stories not as we used to play back then.
I am so hoping for a 5e version of Athas and I would really like to play it.

Most interestingly I found the 4e version quite intriguing, but it came out at the wrong time.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
My position is that 5E Dark Sun should present a version of the setting that doesn’t necessarily take into account the post-box set additions but at the same time strives to be compatible with them allowing those who did enjoy the later aspects to add it back in. [...]
Yes, that would make sense. I think being vague about the backstory and timeline is the best way to go. It's hard to be all things to all people but if new setting materials were written cleverly enough, while leaving the post-1991 set additions unmentioned, fans of those additions could connect the dots and new readers would be free to create their own headcannon.

Other option may be to allow a spin-off recovering some ideas from the setting Jackandor.
Intriguing. Jackandor had good premise, with it's morally ambiguous societies, but I'm not quite sure how they would fit into Dark Sun, which has shades of gray too but is generally pretty clear about who the bad guys are. What are you thinking the spinoff would look like and what would it recover?

And we can't forget the possibility of a future "infinite crisis", a mega-event altering all the official D&D worlds.
You know, in the past I would have been skeptical of that possibility. But with some kind of edition update on the horizon, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, Monsters of the Multiverse, WotC's apparent intentions to move from the Forgotten Realms to a broader multiverse as the persistent default setting, and every Marvel movie now slapping me in the face with the word "multiverse", I'm not so sure.

Nope. I was fascinated, and read every word.

I now know what I want in a Dark Sun product: Your vision of the explored world of Athas. I like yours better than the original.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I wish I had the time and wherewithal to develop it further.
 

Staffan

Legend
There were other area's detailed in differeint supplements. Remember Dark Sun was originally inhabited by halflings who built a fantastic civilization, they were called the lifeshapers. It's inferred that they created the Elves and Humans who then went on to cause the catyclism.
Nah, the elves and humans came later. It goes something like this:
  1. In the Blue Age, the sun is blue, and the world is mostly covered in water with scattered islands here and there. The dominant life form are halflings who mostly don't use magic or psionics, except for a small bit of elemental cleric magic, but instead have devoted their efforts to the science of life-shaping.
  2. As they reach a population where it's getting hard to support themselves via what's available in the ocean (I'm assuming life-shaping assisted kelp/algae farming and fishing and the like), they decide to perform an experiment that's supposed to make the oceans more fertile. This does not work out well, and instead a "Brown Tide" spreads and starts to choke off the oceans entirely.
  3. In desperation, they use the magic of a place called the Pristine Tower (whose origins remain unclear), with the ability to draw power from the sun and which also has extreme mutagenic properties. They manage to destroy the Brown Tide, but in the process the oceans mostly dry up and the sun turns yellow. In addition, many of the halflings mutate into different forms, turning into other races (humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, lizardfolk, giants, etc.).
  4. This is what marks the start of the Green Age. Green Age Athas would be somewhat recognizable as a regular D&D setting, but initially the main supernatural power is psionics which is developed to a very high degree.
  5. Among the new races created by the Pristine Tower are the pyreen, which share features of many different races. One of these, Rajaat, turns out deformed and bitter, however, and believes the world would be better off if returned to its former stage and returned to the halflings. But he doesn't really have the ability to make his plan a reality, so he looks for ways of doing that.
  6. Rajaat eventually manages to invent arcane magic. I think he first discovers defiling, and then refines techniques for preserving. He thinks this would be a great way for halflings to take over the world again, but as it turns out halflings can't use arcane magic.
    1. Side note: this is a continuity issue in the 2e material. In the original boxed set, halflings can advance to 16th level as wizards, but only as preserver illusionists, and two of the novels (The Verdant Passage and The Amber Enchantress) feature halfling characters that clearly use arcane magic and visibly draw power from nearby plant life. In the revised boxed set and in the later novels (can't recall if it's the Obsidian Oracle or the Cerulean Storm), it is explained that halflings can't use arcane magic, and that the halflings in previous books used elemental/clerical magic instead, which is BS. My headcanon is that halflings are unable to use defiling magic, which made them useless to Rajaat's plan.
  7. Rajaat teaches preserving magic to the world at large. Among his pupils, he identifies some who he believes would be suitable for his plans, and secretly teaches them more powerful defiling magic.
  8. Rajaat then imbues the most powerful of his secret pupils with additional power from the Pristine Tower, turning them into "dragons" (21st level defiler/preservers, at that point still mostly human with some draconian attributes) and charges each of them with extermination of one particular race. This drains more power from the sun, which turns red, and it also signals the start of the Cleansing Wars.
  9. As the Cleansing Wars go on for some time, Athas does not fare well. Both sides use defiling magic extensively, turning large areas of the world into desert. Some of the Champions fulfill their genocidal goals, but eventually they figure out that once all the elves, gnomes, dwarves, etc. are dead, Rajaat will turn on them and the humans. Before this can happen, they turn on Rajaat, but can't really defeat him. Instead, they imprison him in another plane.
  10. Borys, one of the former Champions, is charged with maintaining Rajaat's prison, and again the power of the Pristine Tower is used to advance him into a full dragon. The pain and power drives Borys mad with rage, and Borys goes on a rampage for a century. This is essentially what turns the whole world into a desert. The remaining Champions retreat to fortified cities where they become the Sorcerer-Monarchs we know and love.
  11. After about a century, Borys comes back to his senses and learns that Rajaat's prison is about to break. He calls on his former allies to provide him with thousands of people he can drain the life of to reinforce the prison, and they do so. This will then go on for quite some time.
 

AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
That's a cool idea. Where would you go with it? Would it differ significantly from the ringing mountain barrier east and west and ringing mountain ribs north and south setup (i.e. no forest ridge), and what would the existence of the crater mean?
I picked up Wonderdraft recently and started on forging this into an idea that incorporates the Revised and Expanded box. Alt-Athas Ringed Tablelands Full Res by AdmundfortGeographer on DeviantArt

It’s in progress obviously. Since posted, I’ve added more and grown this to include a near-complete ring with gap in the south for the sea of silt to spill out which I’ll post the next update soon.
 

Bitbrain

ORC (Open RPG) horde ally
I picked up Wonderdraft recently and started on forging this into an idea that incorporates the Revised and Expanded box. Alt-Athas Ringed Tablelands Full Res by AdmundfortGeographer on DeviantArt

It’s in progress obviously. Since posted, I’ve added more and grown this to include a near-complete ring with gap in the south for the sea of silt to spill out which I’ll post the next update soon.

That is a truly glorious map! I can’t wait to see what it looks like when completed!
 

squibbles

Adventurer
I picked up Wonderdraft recently and started on forging this into an idea that incorporates the Revised and Expanded box. Alt-Athas Ringed Tablelands Full Res by AdmundfortGeographer on DeviantArt

It’s in progress obviously. Since posted, I’ve added more and grown this to include a near-complete ring with gap in the south for the sea of silt to spill out which I’ll post the next update soon.
Super cool.

Once you get the whole crater area filled in, I'd be interested to know what cities, groups, and geographical features you populate it with.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
I picked up Wonderdraft recently and started on forging this into an idea that incorporates the Revised and Expanded box. Alt-Athas Ringed Tablelands Full Res by AdmundfortGeographer on DeviantArt

It’s in progress obviously. Since posted, I’ve added more and grown this to include a near-complete ring with gap in the south for the sea of silt to spill out which I’ll post the next update soon.

Hey @AdmundfortGeographer it's been a bit, so I thought I'd ask if you finished/kept working on your tablelands-as-a-massive-crater interpretation of Dark Sun.

What'd you end up adding to the south and east? Got any more map-tastic goodness?
 

AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
Thanks for asking! I posted a sequence of in progress maps all the way to the ending map. I ran into a few hurdles due to adding far too many symbols for my computer to handle so I had to come up with creative solutions that I found suboptimal. The final map would take forever opening and saving.

A couple weeks ago I got a new computer and the map refused to open at all. So I returned to the old computer and created detail maps of each corner of the ring. Basically quartering the thing, with some overlap. I also decided to post those maps in high res detail too.

Check the files out in this gallery, and don’t forget to download for the high res versions.

I put my alternate Athas cartography on pause to while I returned to my Greyhawk regional map project. Which I‘m making progress through. I plan on return to Athas tackle an alternate take on the Jagged Cliffs and the Thri Kreen empire.
 


AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

Those maps look excellent, and I'm curious what's going on in that second crater shape in the southeast.
Well, when one stares at surface maps of Mars and the Moon long enough you start seeing impact craters being hit by later impacts right on the crater’s ring. Well, I did at least. Way too much staring at those maps, I tell ya.

So that was just a creative opportunity to drop something in as an excuse that could also give the silt sea a region it could still flow out to a larger expanse, if not a silt ocean beyond the Ringing Mountains. I hadn’t though further than me just liking such a possibility.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Thanks for asking! I posted a sequence of in progress maps all the way to the ending map. I ran into a few hurdles due to adding far too many symbols for my computer to handle so I had to come up with creative solutions that I found suboptimal. The final map would take forever opening and saving.

A couple weeks ago I got a new computer and the map refused to open at all. So I returned to the old computer and created detail maps of each corner of the ring. Basically quartering the thing, with some overlap. I also decided to post those maps in high res detail too.

Check the files out in this gallery, and don’t forget to download for the high res versions.

I put my alternate Athas cartography on pause to while I returned to my Greyhawk regional map project. Which I‘m making progress through. I plan on return to Athas tackle an alternate take on the Jagged Cliffs and the Thri Kreen empire.
They really are fantastic maps. Thanks for sharing.
 

AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
Dark Sun comments from Kyle Brink scoop from Athas.org


“I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards. We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.”

Maybe this could be its own post to not hijack the thread.
 
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overgeeked

B/X Known World
Dark Sun comments from Kyle Brink scoop from Athas.org


“I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards. We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.”

Maybe this could be its own post to not hijack the thread.
Too bad. But better they keep their hands off it than sanitize it into being unrecognizable. Besides, other game systems handle the feel of Dark Sun way better than 5E could.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
Dark Sun comments from Kyle Brink scoop from Athas.org


“I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards. We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.”

Maybe this could be its own post to not hijack the thread.

Wow.

Ya, for sure make a thread about it.

The gobsmacking thing about it is that they're wrong. The setting is environmentalist, anti-authoritarian, and anti-racism and if they had the courage of their convictions they would understand that, and be able to do it justice.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Wow.

Ya, for sure make a thread about it.

The gobsmacking thing about it is that they're wrong. The setting is environmentalist, anti-authoritarian, and anti-racism and if they had the courage of their convictions they would understand that, and be able to do it justice.
Trouble is they'd need to show an awful lot of anti-environmentalism, authoritarianism, and racism (along with a lot of other terrible things) to get that across. Lately people don't seem to be able to tell the difference between 1) a warning against a thing, and; 2) a promotion of that thing. Here's a story about how racism is bad...followed by the inevitable backlash calling out that same story as itself promoting racism. You can't show the thing is bad without showing the thing.
 

Staffan

Legend
Dark Sun comments from Kyle Brink scoop from Athas.org


“I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards. We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.”

Maybe this could be its own post to not hijack the thread.
This goes back somewhat to what I wrote in another thread regarding Wakanda versus Luke Cage as power fantasies.

In the real world, lots of people face oppression of various sorts. I think that in the face of that, it is natural to turn to one of two types of power fantasies, exemplified by Wakanda and Luke Cage.

Wakanda is an utopia. It is rich, it is powerful, it blends super-science with tradition, and there's no oppression. There are certainly threats to Wakanda, but Wakanda seems to be mighty enough to meet most of them and prevail. This is a good dream to strive for, and it's clear that it plucks at the heart strings of many. This seems to be pretty close in principle to many settings: there is a status quo which is Good, and people are mostly equal – or at least not discriminated against on account of ethnicity, sex, or sexuality. The job of Our Heroes is usually to defend this status quo, at least on a larger scale.

On the other hand, we have Luke Cage. Cage lives in a grittier part of the Marvel Universe, where corruption is rampant, people in power enjoy holding that power over others, and oppression is a fact of life. In short, Cage's world sucks. But Cage is empowered to do something about it. He is the black man the cops can't shoot (the TV series used a more colorful metaphor which I do not believe our esteemed mods would appreciate). He's the one who can change the world for the better. This type of world is where Dark Sun needs to be: the world is in a very bad place, but the PCs are the ones who can do something about it.

One problem is that writing something like that is pretty hard. You need to walk the line between making it grim, and making it grimdark. If there is no hope at all, then what's the point? So the world can't be all bad, but where do you draw the line? This is where I think the post-Freedom! Dark Sun setting shines: one of the sorcerer-kings has just been overthrown, showing that a better world is possible. But upsetting the status quo is not without risks. Other sorcerer-monarchs have their eye on the city of Tyr, who just lost their mightiest defender (for certain values of defender). The abolition of slavery has created a large poor underclass, leading to social instability as well as food insecurity (because who's tending the fields now? You mean we have to PAY them? But that'll make food more expensive!). That's a setting with lots of potential, but also one who could easily fall back into despair.

Another problem is that a setting like that tends to attract some people who only look at the surface, and who see slavery and oppression and think "cool!". I'm thinking of a recent Kickstarter that tried ripping off Dark Sun, but fortunately never got anywhere. It can be hard telling these pizza cutters from fans who appreciate what little hope the setting has.

And of course, I'm writing this from a position of privilege. I'm a straight white cis dude who lives in one of the world's richest countries. In the great game of life, I'm pretty much playing on easy mode. For me, experiencing oppression in a game is a matter of escapism. I get to experience something else for a while, but when the game is done, I get to go back to my life of privilege. Not everyone has that luxury, and I can't really blame them for preferring a game where they get to take a break from oppression being a thing to contend with on a daily basis.
 

There is slavery in DS, but also in all the stories with illithid.

My suggestion is to try a spin-off, updating the crunch, but with the option to add things from the last editions. The setting will be not in Athas itself, but in a cluster of Wildspaces. These suffered a ecologic apocalypse by fault of the defilers from Athas, and even some ones are "sorcerer-kings" ruling their own "demielemental" demiplanes.

And there is a faction of renegade githyankis who have created an idependient kingdom in the Astral Sea.
 

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