D&D 4E 1st level 4E characters are already Heroes

[ptolemy18]

It's actually kind of videogamey.

Touché and stuff. But actually, even in MMORPGs, all the NPCs always talk to you like you're some awesome hero right out of the gate. Except in Ultima Online, where you could in fact play a tailor or a fisherman. But that game died a miserable death... I guess not enough people want to play tailors and fishermen (or gravediggers or ratcatchers, to quote two classes from old Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play... )

 

[ptolemy18]

And, for me at least, this leads to huge flavor problems. If low level adventurers are so weak, why does anyone ever ask them for help? Why would a small town send a party of four 1st level PCs to deal with that goblin tribe that's been harassing them when a patrol of town guardsmen could handle the problem just as well if not better?

Ehh. Maybe the town guardsmen are 1st-level Warriors with 4 hit points. Or maybe it's just one of those conventions of the game that the PCs should be special, the same as "Why don't the characters just have peaceful lives and grow up to be tailors and fishermen?" Obviously I think D&D ought to be heroic -- I just like my heroism to start out at a more low level of heroism and gradually build its way up.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The fact that D&D is "level-based" is one of the strongest reasons for having the characters start out kinda weak. In a skill-based RPG, where your characters gain power slowly and super-incrementally, of course you start out more awesome. But in a level-based RPG, it doesn't make sense unless the characters start out weak and gradually become awesomer and awesomer.

This has nothing to do with whether the game has levels or not, and everything to do with the granularity of advancement. If there are 50 levels in a game instead of 10, but the power level tops out at about the same place, the characters will gain power more slowly. If it takes 20 points to approximate a D&D character level, and each game session the players are given 50 points, they'll advance much more quickly. It's a gains/time equation, not a question of the method by which increases in power are handled.

Look, I can understand the desire for more heroic play. If that's the way D&D4e is, then oh well, I'll live; I'm enough of a game geek that I can find other games which I like to play. But "starting out weak and getting strong" is one of the main traits distinguishing D&D from all other RPGs. It's not "starting out strong and getting stronger."

Try playing GURPS Fantasy. D&D hardly has a monopoly on starting out weak.

 

[JoeGKushner]

In terms of starting power levels, one of the greatest weaknesses in the D&D engine is that it's never really accounted for background.

Elric. In his first novel, he's a master conjuror, commands vast armies, is an expert swordsman, has the finest arms and armor. And that's before he gets Stormbringer.

Robin Hood: I don't think we'll see too many say that he's 1st level at the start of the story.

Conan: While Conan is not at the height of his prowess when he's first introduced, he's no first level character either.

Hawkmoon: Starts off in a bad situation and gains items as he goes through the series but there is no doubt that he's a master swordsman and tactician.

Eternal Warrior: Well, he's the Eternal Warrior, Erekose!

In other cases, it's popular for "farm boy" to save the world. Raymond Feist has Pug. Ironically enough, in latter series, due to being one of Pug's kids, the kids start off much more powerful than poor Pug ever did. Robert Jordan has Rand, but once again ,as the series progresses, we seem some very powerful characters introduced, and Rand's (as well as Pug, and magic using characters in general), do not follow anything like D&D level evolution where they're powers SKYROCKET going from 1st to 30th level in a heartbeat and then using writer fiat to get out of fatal situations.

Part of the problem is the automatic advancing of abilities. Other parts of the problem are that you have to have A, B, and C before you get X, Y, and Z even though you have no interest in the former and will never use them.

I'll be curious to see how the new system works.

 

[Sun Knight]

I'd note that DnD is marketed as a heroic fantasy. Heroic fantasy involves characters doing heroic things, not dieing near the beginning because of a lucky DM roll. Gritty games where you can die at any time is certaintly a valid play type and can be fun, but it's not really what a lot of people who like heroic fantasy are looking for. You seem to be assuming that your taste is the norm.

I'd point out that WotC does a LOT of market research when they do this sort of thing. If they're making it so it's harder for low level characters to get killed, you might want to consider the idea that it's because a lot of people have told them they didnt like this. It might not be more fun for your particular tastes, but they cant cater to every individual person. They'll go with what the more numerous market wants.

Then I guess I am no longer in WotC's target audience which indeed sucks since I spent so much money on their products, and was planning to buy a few more 3.5e items prior this 4e announcement. Since I am no longer in their target audience, nor are the people like me, they no longer want my money. A pity. Unfortunately I don't know of any other good fantasy RPGs out there, and don't say GURPS or Rolemaster. They both suck.

No more DnD for this gamer.

 

[shilsen]

Then I guess I am no longer in WotC's target audience which indeed sucks since I spent so much money on their products, and was planning to buy a few more 3.5e items prior this 4e announcement. Since I am no longer in their target audience, nor are the people like me, they no longer want my money. A pity. Unfortunately I don't know of any other good fantasy RPGs out there, and don't say GURPS or Rolemaster. They both suck.

No more DnD for this gamer.

Just a thought, but maybe you should wait till 4e comes out before deciding you can never play D&D any more. And even if it doesn't fit your tastes, why not play 3.5e or some earlier version?

 

[Sun Knight]

Just a thought, but maybe you should wait till 4e comes out before deciding you can never play D&D any more. And even if it doesn't fit your tastes, why not play 3.5e or some earlier version?

Because I am just one player out of a huge group and the rest of the group wants 4e then I am out of a gaming group.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Then I guess I am no longer in WotC's target audience which indeed sucks since I spent so much money on their products, and was planning to buy a few more 3.5e items prior this 4e announcement. Since I am no longer in their target audience, nor are the people like me, they no longer want my money. A pity. Unfortunately I don't know of any other good fantasy RPGs out there, and don't say GURPS or Rolemaster. They both suck.

No more DnD for this gamer.

The good news is that your old books have not burst into flames and you're still free to play them.

Rolemaster: Don't like it. Cool. It's not everyone's cup of tea.

HARP: A simplified version of Rolemaster in some ways. Cool system.

Runequest: Haven't played it in a while but it looks like Mongoose is going a great job bringing a lot of the old S&S under it's banner including Lankhimar, Elric, Hawkmoon, and Slaine.

GURPS Fantasy: Even if you don't like the system, the book has some great ideas in it.

Hero Fantasy: Even more so than GURPS Fantasy, this is abook all GMs should have. Great ideas in it.

Iron Gauntlets: Only heard of it, never played it.

Exalted: Ultra high power fantasy. Very crunchy.

Good luck with what ever game system you choose.

 

[Sun Knight]

The good news is that your old books have not burst into flames and you're still free to play them.

With what group? If my group goes to 4e, as I said in my previous post, then I am out of the gaming group. Since gaming groups are a rare thing where I live its not like I can easily join a new group, and no I don't do that online thing.

You guys keep saying that the books won't go into flames like that is a real concern when obviously it is not. The books are worthless if you don't have a group to game with.

 

[shilsen]

With what group? If my group goes to 4e, as I said in my previous post, then I am out of the gaming group. Since gaming groups are a rare thing where I live its not like I can easily join a new group, and no I don't do that online thing.

You guys keep saying that the books won't go into flames like that is a real concern when obviously it is not. The books are worthless if you don't have a group to game with.

Well then, I guess you have a choice to make. Play what the rest of your group wants to play or play online ... or don't play at all. Seems simple. Maybe not ideal, but simple.