D&D 2E Did The Complete Fighter's Handbook kill "Zero to Hero"?

[PHATsakk43]

Actions are still declared, and it is not "before the round" but before the lowest initiative roll. A haste spell would still allow simultaneous action during this part of the round.

 

[James Gasik]

Actions are still declared, and it is not "before the round" but before the lowest initiative roll. A haste spell would still allow simultaneous action during this part of the round.

I suppose in that case, any Wizard who decides to cast a spell upon seeing someone with a bow nocked and ready to fire deserves their fate.

Would bow specialization trump the effects of a speed weapon? Ie, scimitar of speed, crossbow of speed, short sword of quickness, since those are worded to guarantee the first strike in the round unless opposed by a similar weapon, as opposed to being able to attack before initiative is even rolled? Or would the magic weapon allow for faster attacking than specialization? Or is just an odd way to say the same thing?

 

[PHATsakk43]

I suppose in that case, any Wizard who decides to cast a spell upon seeing someone with a bow nocked and ready to fire deserves their fate.

Would bow specialization trump the effects of a speed weapon? Ie, scimitar of speed, crossbow of speed, short sword of quickness, since those are worded to guarantee the first strike in the round unless opposed by a similar weapon, as opposed to being able to attack before initiative is even rolled? Or would the magic weapon allow for faster attacking than specialization? Or is just an odd way to say the same thing?

Skip Williams said so in a Sage Advice. Basically, if the action occurs before initiative numbers, then all those actions would go at once.

That said, there are some interesting implications that could be considered.

Basically, the arrow has to be nocked and the target covered prior to the round the shot is fired. This also implies that the second arrow shot that the fighter could be used to allow a subsequent shot each round, but this would also mean the fighter is stationary.

I’d allow it, but I’m not sure it’s ever really covered.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

So is this the moment where the definition of what a low-level character is changed?

To put it simply? No.

But it's clear evidence that, by 1989, the concept of "zero to hero" as "the way D&D works" was, as Kenshiro might put it, "already dead", even if it didn't know it yet.

Kits in general, not merely the Myrmidon show a move away from "you're a nobody" as any kind of starting precept for D&D. So do some classes - like it's hard to see someone who starts as a Speciality Priest from 1990's Forgotten Realms Adventures as a "zero". Or even we can go back into 1E and look at say, Oriental Adventures - it's hard to see a level 1 Samurai or Ninja as a "zero".

Now, moving the power curve downward, the Complete series did that plenty of times.

Indeed, several of the Complete books offered either ways to power stuff down generally (which doesn't necessarily interact with zero-to-hero but is of note), or Kits that were often weaker than the basic class chassis (the Complete Paladin particularly did this, and the Complete Priest, which made being basically any non-FR Speciality Priest a huge downgrade from being a Cleric!).

 

[James Gasik]

Indeed, several of the Complete books offered either ways to power stuff down generally (which doesn't necessarily interact with zero-to-hero but is of note), or Kits that were often weaker than the basic class chassis (the Complete Paladin particularly did this, and the Complete Priest, which made being basically any non-FR Speciality Priest a huge downgrade from being a Cleric!).

Not just the FR. While not as strong, several of the the mythos priests presented in Demihuman Deities and Legends & Lore were fairly amazing as well.

 

[PHATsakk43]

Kits in general, not merely the Myrmidon show a move away from "you're a nobody" as any kind of starting precept for D&D. So do some classes - like it's hard to see someone who starts as a Speciality Priest from 1990's Forgotten Realms Adventures as a "zero". Or even we can go back into 1E and look at say, Oriental Adventures - it's hard to see a level 1 Samurai or Ninja as a "zero".

Not particularly moreso than a vanilla paladin.