D&D 4E 1st level 4E characters are already Heroes

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So why do you wish to force your style of fun on me?

Because my style of fun is obviously superior?

More honestly, because "my style of fun" is much easier for a new player to pick up and use and get a good experience out of.

People who insist on bringing back the old equivalent of 1st level, by virtue of the fact that they understand what that statement means, will also be the types who are capable of designing house rules to get what they want from the game to begin with.

 

[Sun Knight]

Obviously, it's because I'm just a big meanie.

And perhaps a tad bit hypocritical? Obviously you have a problem with me forcing my style of fun on others but the reverse is not true.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

That is one possibility but it just seems to me that you do not wish for me to force my way of gaming on to you but are perfectly willing to force your style of gaming onto me.

1) I'm not forcing "my" style of gaming on anybody, I'm giving a simple suggestion in reply to your question about how to modify a hypothetical 4E 1st level character in order to get back to a style you prefer more.

2) EVERY edition of D&D "forces" its style of play on the people who play it. Those who don't like that style ALWAYS have to houserule it away. Whatever edition you prefer, you are either playing the style of its creators, or you use houserules...which in turn means you "force" your style on your players when you DM.

I don't know how somebody who clearly has as much D&D gaming experience as you can make such a fuss about houseruling one (hypothetical) aspect of the game back to his comfort level. I mean, really, we can all use a breather, take a step back, and look at what we're arguing about here. It's nothing to play Custer over, really...or go all "repent your munchkin ways" on the yet-to-be published edition.

 

[Sun Knight]

House rules is all fine and good but I find it more gratifying if I can play the game on reasonably entertaining level with minimal "house" changes. Especially when I am either running or playing an official campaign setting such as Eberron or Forgotten Realms.

For a person to up the starting level to 3rd in 3e or 3.5e breaks less the rules of the game than lowering the starting hit points in 4e, does it not?

 

[Grog]

And perhaps a tad bit hypocritical? Obviously you have a problem with me forcing my style of fun on others but the reverse is not true.

Please explain how I am forcing anything on you.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

House rules is all fine and good but I find it more gratifying if I can play the game on reasonably entertaining level with minimal "house" changes. Especially when I am either running or playing an official campaign setting such as Eberron or Forgotten Realms.

For a person to up the starting level to 3rd in 3e or 3.5e breaks less the rules of the game than lowering the starting hit points in 4e, does it not?

That, as 95% of ALL of the differences between editions, is in the eye of the beholder. The jury is still out on the remaining 5%.

Personally, I'd say "No". But that goes only for me, myself, and I. And is as such not the most compelling argument in a discussion about my most favorite passtime.

 

[Sun Knight]

That, as 95% of ALL of the differences between editions, is in the eye of the beholder. The jury is still out on the remaining 5%.

Personally, I'd say "No". But that goes only for me, myself, and I. And is as such not the most compelling argument in a discussion about my most favorite passtime.

Please explain, how is it a "No?"

 

[Jim DelRosso]

I remember the first time I played 2e. We started at 1st level. On the way to the dungeon, the cleric fell down a hill, almost died, and we had to go back to town to wait for him to heal up. When we got into the dungeon, we ran into three skeletons, and were slaughtered.

It was not fun.

The first time I played 3e, we also started at 1st level. On the way into the dungeon, our monk tripped a trap and got a rock dropped on his head. We had to head back, camp, and let him heal up. We weren't TPK'd that time, but it was a close thing: that goblin shaman with the sharpened stick gave us quite a hassle.

It not as bad, but still not fun.

I'm currently running SWSE for the first time. We're starting at first level. So far the characters have battled a crew of pirates and a young Sith. The fights were action packed and tension filled: they got beat-up, came close to losing, but were able to pull it out in the end. And it was against opponents who clearly deserved some respect.

It was unbelievably fun.

I know which model I hope 4e embraces.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

For a person to up the starting level to 3rd in 3e or 3.5e breaks less the rules of the game than lowering the starting hit points in 4e, does it not?

Given that we don't know exactly how 4E is going to work, that question is impossible to answer.

It could be that, if you want a true "3E 1st-level Experience" in 4E, the easy way would be to start everyone a Level 1 Nonheroic (to steal from SWSE terminology).

Then, after a couple adventures, allow the characters to redo their first level as a heroic class.

 

[Sun Knight]

"Redo" their characters? Sounds more work that what it would be than to up the 1st level character to third in 3e.