1st level party vs. injured giant

[RangerWickett]

How would you run this scenario?

The party is low-level, part of a larger expedition to hunt down a giant. They're present when the trap is sprung, and the giant is injured, but it manages to kill the rest of the NPCs the party was with, then use its size and the terrain to get away in the chaos. It limps back to its cave, horribly wounded and dripping blood all the way.

I want the PCs to track down the giant, which normally would be a 10th or 13th level foe, and finish it off.

Should I just take the stats of a high-level monster but give it, like, 40 HP? They will barely be able to hit it, but their daily attacks would still deal damage even on a miss. It would only get one attack per round, but each hit would be enough to bloody or drop a single PC.

Or should I just stat it up as a level 1 solo, and just describe their "hits" as just barely grazing him, but being enough to wear him down.

What do you think?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I would make a level 5 or 6 solo version of the giant, then I would start the battle as he is bloodied... I would also make it a slow speed...

 

[IanB]

There are a lot of options here. I might consider using a full hp ogre in the level 8-ish range (non solo, non elite), and just have him count as bloodied the whole time.

 

[Dausuul]

How would you run this scenario?

The party is low-level, part of a larger expedition to hunt down a giant. They're present when the trap is sprung, and the giant is injured, but it manages to kill the rest of the NPCs the party was with, then use its size and the terrain to get away in the chaos. It limps back to its cave, horribly wounded and dripping blood all the way.

I want the PCs to track down the giant, which normally would be a 10th or 13th level foe, and finish it off.

Should I just take the stats of a high-level monster but give it, like, 40 HP? They will barely be able to hit it, but their daily attacks would still deal damage even on a miss. It would only get one attack per round, but each hit would be enough to bloody or drop a single PC.

Or should I just stat it up as a level 1 solo, and just describe their "hits" as just barely grazing him, but being enough to wear him down.

What do you think?

My inclination would be to use the stats of a high-level monster with reduced hit points. Mechanical consistency improves the sense of a coherent world and underscores the sense of accomplishment as the PCs advance, and there's nothing wrong with making them struggle to hit once in a while.

I'll assume you've got a standard party of 5, so a level-equivalent encounter would be 500 XP. That's equivalent to a 10th-level regular monster--though XP values obviously have to be taken with a big grain of salt when you're dealing with monsters 9 levels ahead of the party. Assume competently built but not heavily optimized PCs, you've got an attack bonus of +8 or so versus AC. A hill giant smasher (11th level) has AC 23, so your PCs will likely need around a 15 to hit, which is high but not crazy high.

If you start the smasher at 50 hit points or so, the fight should be pretty well slugged in the PCs' favor (especially if they're careful to engage at range), but there will be some very tense moments when that greatclub connects! Be sure to let them see its Whirling Crush attack in the first fight, so they know to avoid crowding around it, and you'd probably want to "forget to use" Brutal Smash, since that one could easily take a 1st-level PC to negative bloodied in one shot.

Have the giant's tactics be erratic and ill-thought-out, attacking different PCs at random instead of methodically beating them down one by one. That minimizes the odds of killing a PC outright, and gives the party healer a chance to do his/her thing. The nice thing about this scenario, if the giant does gain the upper hand, you have a perfect excuse for it to leave the party alive. It wants to get away soonest, not hang around delivering coups de grace.

 

[Blue]

At 1st each character will have a single daily. Even assuming all have miss damage, that's not a lot of damage. And the character won't be able to effectively try out all their other nifty toys, erm, powers.

I'd definitely stat him much lower level so people could hit (and have a chance to be missed), using descriptions to make them understand it's not fighting at full capacity. "It tries to dodge but it's wounded knee buckles under it."

You might also want to do it in multiple acts - have it hurt but still up, retreating into it's cave, then release a bunch of dire hounds (minions) to change up the battle as it gets more hurt.

I like the idea of giving it the bloodied condition for the whole encounter.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I would make a level 5 or 6 solo version of the giant, then I would start the battle as he is bloodied... I would also make it a slow speed...

I would make it a solo exactly 8 levels lower! This is the same xp budget as the giant.

Make it clear, that the giant is hurt badly and more or less swinging blindly... less force, but more often, neglecting his defenses.

So he is at -8 to hit and AC compared to his normal stats. Start him bloodied (so that he has only about half as many HP...

Make his standard attack a double swing or a close burst, and give him an immediate reaction and a minor action attack. Back hand swing or something like that which deals half damage for that level, maybe also a minor ranged attack.

So:

A level 5 giant (formerly 13) would have something like:

(standard) club: standard action: 2d10+4 damage
backhand sweep!: minor action (1/round): Damage 1d10+2
Take this mage! stone: minor action (recharge 4,5,6): Damage 2d8+4
club sweep! (1/round): close blast 3: 2d10+4
Not in my back!: immediate interrupt: trigger: someone tries to flank: attack vs fort: 1d10+2 damage + knock prone!

Attack bonus +10 for all attacks. Speed: slowed! Can´t shift!

HP will be about 120 (bloodied) Action points: 2!

I gave him no permanent ranged attack because you want to encounter him in a cave. If you want to fight him in the open. Remove the recharge from his stone throwing attack, because he can find as many stones on the ground as needed!

Edit: run + charge will get him in melee with a -5 penalty. run + charge + action point will allow him uing his sweep. Usually he will be able to only get a singel PC into his blast. Good tactics and players will bring him down quickly (he is a brute so his AC is only 17)

 

[Dausuul]

At 1st each character will have a single daily. Even assuming all have miss damage, that's not a lot of damage. And the character won't be able to effectively try out all their other nifty toys, erm, powers.

I don't feel like this is a devastating loss. PCs get into lots of fights. They don't have to get full use out of every power every time, and a fight like this presents a new and different challenge: "What can we do to maximize our chance to hit, while avoiding that monster greatclub?" If you need a 15 to hit, then just the +2 from combat advantage is worth a 33% increase in damage output.

I wouldn't do this for every encounter, or even most of them. In general, the PCs should hit more often than they miss. But variety makes for a good game, and this is a nice opportunity to pitch them something different, with plenty of "safety valves" in case things go awry (the monster is wounded and confused, so it might use poor tactics; the monster's goal is to escape, not to kill everything that moves, so losing the battle doesn't have to mean TPK).

 

[OnlineDM]

If you do end up going with a monster whose defenses are really high, effectively making it so that the PCs can only connect on a critical hit, keep in mind that some characters from the Essentials books don't have daily attack powers. Also, some daily attack powers don't deal damage on a miss - they're reliable instead (not a great comfort if the PC can never hit).

I think it's reasonable to have a monster that can be hit only with a 15 or better on the die as a scary encounter. But requiring a crit is going to make for a frustrating battle (unless, you know, you have a wizard in the party who can throw magic missiles at the wounded eladrin, er, giant...).

A non-optimized character probably has an 18 in their primary stat (+4 to hit) and a weapon with a +2 proficiency bonus, with no expertise feat. That means that they're only at +6 to hit (or +4 to hit against a non-AC defense if they're an implement user). Keep those numbers in mind. If you have a monster with AC 23 and NADs of 21, then the non-optimized PC needs a 17 on the die to hit (unless they can get combat advantage or some other edge).

A Brute has an AC of level+12, so if you want to shoot for something more like AC21, that would be a level 9 brute. If it were a skirmisher, the AC is level+14, so that's a level 7 skirmisher. I'd completely avoid the soldier role due to the higher AC. A level 9 brute sounds about right.

Keep in mind, though, that a normal single-target damage expression for a level 9 brute is 2d8+12, averaging 21 damage. A critical hit would be 30 damage - enough to drop most 1st level PCs from full health to unconsciousness. If we're talking about a wizard PC, that might kill them outright even if they started at maximum HP. This might be the level of scariness that you're looking for, but make sure you're aware of the potential lethality of the encounter.

 

[Klaus]

How would you run this scenario?

The party is low-level, part of a larger expedition to hunt down a giant. They're present when the trap is sprung, and the giant is injured, but it manages to kill the rest of the NPCs the party was with, then use its size and the terrain to get away in the chaos. It limps back to its cave, horribly wounded and dripping blood all the way.

I want the PCs to track down the giant, which normally would be a 10th or 13th level foe, and finish it off.

Should I just take the stats of a high-level monster but give it, like, 40 HP? They will barely be able to hit it, but their daily attacks would still deal damage even on a miss. It would only get one attack per round, but each hit would be enough to bloody or drop a single PC.

Or should I just stat it up as a level 1 solo, and just describe their "hits" as just barely grazing him, but being enough to wear him down.

What do you think?

This is pretty much the final battle in Orcs of Stonefang Pass:

[sblock]
The party faces down an earth titan. They bind parts of him with a ritual, lowering his hp to bloodied, lowering his defenses, lowering his attack and lowering ther recharge rate of his strongest power.
[/sblock]

 

[Dausuul]

I think it's reasonable to have a monster that can be hit only with a 15 or better on the die as a scary encounter. But requiring a crit is going to make for a frustrating battle (unless, you know, you have a wizard in the party who can throw magic missiles at the wounded eladrin, er, giant...).

Agreed on this. You probably don't want to make it more than a 15 or so to hit. It would likely help to go with one of the monster types that leans toward low defenses--brute or artillery.

A non-optimized character probably has an 18 in their primary stat (+4 to hit) and a weapon with a +2 proficiency bonus, with no expertise feat.

I think that's pushing "non-optimized" a bit. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume one of a) wielding a sword or other +3 proficiency weapon, b) having Expertise, c) having a 20 attack stat, d) having some sort of class-based bonus to hit, or e) having a +1 weapon*. Figure +7 to hit, so AC 22 is a reasonable maximum.

Of course, RangerWickett presumably knows how optimized the PCs in his party are.

Keep in mind, though, that a normal single-target damage expression for a level 9 brute is 2d8+12, averaging 21 damage. A critical hit would be 30 damage - enough to drop most 1st level PCs from full health to unconsciousness. If we're talking about a wizard PC, that might kill them outright even if they started at maximum HP.

This is also a good thing to keep in mind. You might consider scaling down the variation, so instead of 2d8+12 (average 21, crit 30) you'd roll 1d8+17 (average 21.5, crit 25). Even the frailest wizard could survive a 25-point hit, albeit by the skin of her teeth.

[size=-2]*Unless this is the PCs' first adventure.[/size]