1st level party vs. injured giant

[UngeheuerLich]

The wizard should never be in melee with that brute. Mobility should be hampered by his wounds (slowed). If the wizard get into melee, i reall hope he ends up dead with a single hit...

 

[Riastlin]

I think that's pushing "non-optimized" a bit. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume one of a) wielding a sword or other +3 proficiency weapon, b) having Expertise, c) having a 20 attack stat, d) having some sort of class-based bonus to hit, or e) having a +1 weapon*. Figure +7 to hit, so AC 22 is a reasonable maximum.

Of course, RangerWickett presumably knows how optimized the PCs in his party are.

I wouldn't say that this is pushing it too far. Consider a character that wants to take the Executioner's Axe or Mordenkrad, etc. Their first feat will likely be Weapon Proficiency and its far from uncommon to keep your starting stats at 18 or less. If its the first adventure as you say they won't even have a +1 weapon yet. All of that adds up to +6 to hit. Now, by 2nd level I'd agree that those are fairly reasonable assumptions.

Of course, as you say, Ranger Wickett is certainly going to be in the best position to know what his PCs have in their arsenal.

As for the encounter itself, I think I would go for either a level 8 or so standard critter (sorta like the start of Rescue at Rivenroar and the ogre there) or drop it down to a noticeably lower level solo and reduce its damage quite a bit. I'm just not sure you want a bad roll or two deciding a PC's fate (of course, if you are going for the gritty feel then this is perfect). As for explaining the "inconsistencies" that will crop up later when the party encounters "level-appropriate" giants at full strength, I think a good way around this is to have the trap not only badly wound the giant, but also perhaps poison/slow/etc the giant. "As the poison courses through its veins, the giant's reflexes are slowed to a crawl, its arms appear heavy and suddenly its no longer able to block those strikes that were trivial before. You could maybe even make the poison grow stronger as the fight progresses which would help to reduce the grindy feel of a solo encounter. Finally, make the poison maker be one of the hunting party that gets killed, and the poison is his own "secret recipe". Heck, if giants are going to feature prominently in the campaign, this "secret recipe" could even become a plot point with the PCs trying to track down the secret later, etc.

I do agree that aiming for a 15 to hit is probably about as high as you want to go, especially at first level since the PC's options will be limited. Of course, some of this depends on the players involved too. If they are sufficiently experienced, they may be able to come up with the ideas necessary to get their hits in (flanking, Aid Another, etc.). If they are relatively new to the game though they are less likely to think of some of these "tricks".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You don´t need poison. A terrible wound is something extraordinary in D&D. Usually the only real wound you inflict causes death.

The wound could easily havebecome worse and more hurting, from the fast and headless flight. So don´t worry about it.

And don´t worry how to explain the miserable accuracy and damage. A solo is the equivalent of a standard level monster 8 level higher. It is just an abstraction. A miss on a creature 8 levels higher could be described as a hit the giant easily shrugs off. If solofy the monster, HP increase and damage output is higher, as it does more attacks. (you trade 64 hp for quadruple hp and 8 accuracy and damage for 2 action points and at least three atacks per round.)

Edit: another simple solution may be making the giant level 9 and elite.
drop AC and attack by 4 points. decrease damage to 2d10+11 and HP to 119 (bloodied)
Make his Sweeping club at will, but remove push part maybe. And reduce speed to 2.

A normal party of 1st level could manage to kill te thing without losses... maybe...

 

[KidSnide]

The party is low-level, part of a larger expedition to hunt down a giant. They're present when the trap is sprung, and the giant is injured, but it manages to kill the rest of the NPCs the party was with, then use its size and the terrain to get away in the chaos. It limps back to its cave, horribly wounded and dripping blood all the way.

Or should I just stat it up as a level 1 solo, and just describe their "hits" as just barely grazing him, but being enough to wear him down.

I think there are two aspects of this fight. First, it's a fight with a single standard (i.e. non-solo/elite) monster of higher level. Second, it's a fight with an deadly but injured monster. You want your design to reflect both aspects.

To handle the first aspect, you want to reduce the level of the monster and increase its "type" appropriately. IIRC, a solo has the same xp budget as a standard creature ~9 levels higher. You might adjust the "true" level of the giant a bit to get the right result, but I would stat the creature as a lower level solo.

This is to create a fight that's just more fun to play. The encounter is a more interesting fight if the creature has ways of engaging multiple characters. Of course, you need to address the in-game fiction, but I've never had a problem saying that creatures use different moves against enemies of substantially different ability. (The same orc you subdued 10 levels ago is now a minion because you've learned an attack that can kill him in a single blow.)

Of course, you also want a fight that's faster than usual (because the monster is injured), but more deadly than usual (because the monster would be too dangerous to find if it wasn't injured). That suggests that you want a solo creature that is several levels above the PCs, but who starts off bloodied (and, presumably, slowed). That way, you get the action economy of a good solo fight, but keep the deadly feel of an enemy that hits harder and is more difficult to strike than usual.

The key here is balance. You want math that doesn't have the regular damage and hit probabilities, but you also want a fun encounter. A wounded level 14 standard monsters will be frustrating for 1st level characters, because they only hit on a 20 and the monster auto-hits. It's scary, but mechanically tedious.

-KS

 

[Mentat55]

If you want to go with a higher level monster, you can apply some permanent conditions to the giant. Maybe the giant has a penalty to attack rolls and is always granting combat advantage because he is blinded in one eye, or has been hamstrung and thus limps (half move, no shifting). Add in some terrain effects that the PCs can trigger (or make the giant trigger) that can do big damage, like falling rocks or something like that.

I am of two minds about a monster way outclassing the PCs in terms of attack bonus and defenses -- it can be really frustrating for the players, or if done right, it can be a memorable experience.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

giving it more thought, I would make a solo brute version of th giant in quastion, start him at bloodied, slowed, and ongoing 5 no save to end (he is crippled and bleeding to death... really play up the fact that even left alone he may not make it... then when he was at about 1/4 of the hp (or hs new bloodied) take the ongoing away and givehim an action point...(yes on top of the 2 he already had for a solo)...

 

[IanB]

giving it more thought, I would make a solo brute version of th giant in quastion, start him at bloodied, slowed, and ongoing 5 no save to end (he is crippled and bleeding to death... really play up the fact that even left alone he may not make it... then when he was at about 1/4 of the hp (or hs new bloodied) take the ongoing away and givehim an action point...(yes on top of the 2 he already had for a solo)...

I wouldn't suggest going that far. In that case (a speed 2 guy who will apparently bleed to death without your intervention) the extremely obvious solution for the party is to just leave him to bleed to death on his own.

 

[Blue]

I think it's reasonable to have a monster that can be hit only with a 15 or better on the die as a scary encounter. But requiring a crit is going to make for a frustrating battle (unless, you know, you have a wizard in the party who can throw magic missiles at the wounded eladrin, er, giant...).

In my experience, needing a 15 at 1st level to hit all of the enemies (in this case, the only one) isn't a scary encounter, it's a boring encounter. Once you reach 3rd or 5th this begins to change, but at 1st and 2nd it's very true.

At 1st level a (non-essentials) character has two cool powers - a daily and an encounter. (Some may have racial, but also some may have daily/encounter that fit better against multiple opponents than a solo so it isn't cool.)

So let's say the PCs each have two chances to do something besides an at-will. That's about a 50/50 chance (.7 miss * .7 miss = .49 both miss) that the character will be able to contribute anything but at-wills. Boring.

If you really want to run 1st level characters against something that you are going to miss that often, please put in other things for them to do besides at-wills. Fire-pits to try to bull-rush it into, a rockfall trap the PCs can re-purpose against the remaining giant, a giant sized crossbow sitting there cocked that's good for one massive ballista shot.

That isn't about encounter balance, it's about encounter fun. I can half the chance to hit and half the hit-points to have an encounter of the same length/deadliness, but it will be less fun for the PCs when they keep missing. Missing half the time is good - keeps up the tension. Missing all the time gets to be frustrating to the player.

 

[TornadoCreator]

OK, this is a risky but potensially really fun way of doing it.

I would stat the Giant as the following:
A normal Giant in every way, but starts the fight 1HP below bloodies and with the following modifiers. The Giant begins the fight slowed due to being heavily injured. The Giant has a -4 to hit because he'd taken one to many hits to the head, has blood in his eyes and is feeling "woozy". The Giant has a -4 to his Reflex to represent that he's not too steady on his feet and that his left leg is injured (which explains the slow effect). With a DC 12 perception check, the players can see that his leg is especially injured and could prove a weakness. Give the Giant vulnerability 5 to all damage, but only if the person is hitting the Giant in back of the left leg ie.

[k][k][ ][ ]
[k][f][f][ ]
[ ][f][f][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ]

If the player is in the squares marked "k", and the giant is in the squares marked "f" they get the bonus vulnerability 5.

This will make the fight extremely tactical, they'll need to focus on his leg and use Attacks vs. Relex a lot to bring him down, but it's very doable.

 

[Dausuul]

In my experience, needing a 15 at 1st level to hit all of the enemies (in this case, the only one) isn't a scary encounter, it's a boring encounter. Once you reach 3rd or 5th this begins to change, but at 1st and 2nd it's very true.

At 1st level a (non-essentials) character has two cool powers - a daily and an encounter. (Some may have racial, but also some may have daily/encounter that fit better against multiple opponents than a solo so it isn't cool.)

So let's say the PCs each have two chances to do something besides an at-will. That's about a 50/50 chance (.7 miss * .7 miss = .49 both miss) that the character will be able to contribute anything but at-wills. Boring.

If the monster has only 50 hit points, the combat won't last long enough to get boring. Consider: Five PCs, all needing a 15 to hit. Each one averages, let's say 9 points of damage with an at-will, 12 with an encounter, 15 with a daily. Many 1st-level PCs can do quite a bit more than that, but we'll go with those for now.

At a 30% hit rate, if everyone attacks with one daily power, followed by one encounter power, followed by one at-will--the giant is dead. (In the interim, of course, it will have knocked a couple of PCs around pretty painfully.) Even if the PCs roll badly, it should be over by the end of round 4. It's not going to be a long, draggy battle, especially when you factor in combat advantage and the like.

If you were talking about a fight with multiple soldier-type monsters, each at full hit points, I would completely agree. But that's not the situation here.

If you really want to run 1st level characters against something that you are going to miss that often, please put in other things for them to do besides at-wills. Fire-pits to try to bull-rush it into, a rockfall trap the PCs can re-purpose against the remaining giant, a giant sized crossbow sitting there cocked that's good for one massive ballista shot.

Exciting terrain is always a good idea, of course.