D&D 5E 2/18/13 L&L column

[Bedrockgames]

I don't think it is a matter of is it in myth or literature, D&D is a game with its own identity and the cleric that heals the party is a big part of that.

 

[Bedrockgames]

My proposals aren't aimed at having a game where damage doesn't exist, they're aimed at having a game where clerics aren't strictly necessary to gameplay -- that is, as Mearls said in the article, so that the physicians can functionally "heal themselves" (or, in my examples, pre-empt damage...the same thing, ultimately, as far as the maths are concerned).

It might help if you think of it like this: a given party of 4 has, say, 40 HP's. Lets say the monsters do about 5 hp damage per round, meaning the typical party lasts 8 rounds against the monsters (2 rounds each). Now, they also have a cleric with a CLW spell, so they have, effectively, 41-48 HP's, giving them an extra round or two on the whole. So when you look to see how many monsters the party should fight in between periods of complete recovery, you include those extra 1d8 HP's in your calculations, because you want the party to be pushed to the limit.

That's when someone not wanting to play the cleric becomes a problem. The reason a cleric is "necessary" is because they're the only ones with real access to those extra HP's: without CLW, you don't have those 1d8 extra HP's. Because those 1d8 HP's are included in the calculations for the challenges you face, your party without a cleric is actually significantly weaker than the game is expecting. Thus, clerics are necessary.

My proposals are aimed at giving other classes ways to access that extra 1d8 HP. If the rogue gets an AC bonus that causes an extra attack to miss, or if the fighter can deflect an attack, or if the wizard gets a spell that ups AC like the rogue's, they've all done the equivalent of adding that additional round onto the party's total. Now, when nobody plays the cleric, it's not a big deal -- CLW doesn't have exclusive access to that extra HP, so the game can encompass it without an issue.

The actual numbers don't quite line up like this, of course (in actual play, healing often makes up about half or more of a party's ultimate HP total), but I hope that helps you see where my ideas are coming from a little more clearly.

we are still not on the same page. A cleric has never been necessary to gameplay, there are just consequences for not having one. I want that to remain in the game. So again for me your solutions are altering the game that just deviates too much from what I consider the experience of D&D to be. Maybe others won't feel as I do, but I think the recent turn against HD suggests folks largely want a return to the classic approach to clerics, damage and healing. But again, there is no problem having an optional rule in there that does exactly what you suggest, that should keep us both happy. I just don't want to it to be in the default.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't think it is a matter of is it in myth or literature,

It an incredibly contrary element which very much inhibits and limits the kinds of stories you can tell with the games support. The cleric class kept getting more bribe to play me features because its popularity was very narrow but its numbers were required for the game to work,

Unlike the roles in 4e it made a role necessary...

No D&D does not have the power of myth and legend or literature for most people and being its own thing is meh.

 

[Garthanos]

we are still not on the same page. A cleric has never been necessary to gameplay, there are just consequences for not having one.

disjoint stories, broken action even more flukishly dead heros... yes consequences extreme enough to make the game even less fun than being the heal bot for many players.
(I like support class characters myself but the un-fun bit has a long enough history that pretending otherwise is fooling yourself)

 

[Bedrockgames]

It an incredibly contrary element which very much inhibits and limits the kinds of stories you can tell with the games support. The cleric class kept getting more bribe to play me features because its popularity was very narrow but its numbers were required for the game to work,

Unlike the roles in 4e it made a role necessary...

No D&D does not have the power of myth and legend or literature for most people and being its own thing is meh.

I never found it to be a problem. D&D is its own thing. I go to it again and again because it has its own feel. For me there is certainly inspiration to be had from other sources but the game also brings things of its own to the table.

 

[Garthanos]

The other element I havent liked since the beginning is how the cleric manages to also trivialize death.

Bizzare without the cleric death is too easy with the cleric... ping its undone.

 

[Bedrockgames]

disjoint stories, broken action even more flukishly dead heros... yes consequences extreme enough to make the game even less fun than being the heal bot for many players.
(I like support class characters myself but the un-fun bit has a long enough history that pretending otherwise is fooling yourself)

I loved playing clerics. Lots of people enjoyed them. To us they were never an unfun class. I know some folks didn't like the arrangement but I honestly think the problem was never that big an issue for most players. Not everyone is there to narrate a structured story. I am find with the party having to break and regroup when they take too much damage and the cleric is down, not present or our if healing spells. Eventually damage should catch up with you if you push too hard.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The other element I havent liked since the beginning is how the cleric manages to also trivialize death.

Bizzare without the cleric death is too easy with the cleric... ping its undone.

Clearly we like different things.

 

[Ratskinner]

I am looking for a fantasy source featuring these regular magical heals and just not finding it. I mean if it makes so much sense it ought to be a trope of legend and myth bunches of literature... I mean cant you picture Conan constantly out of action or carrying a cleric on his shoulder ... elrics herbs gave him better health it wasnt wound stitching

Hunh? Plenty of magical healing in legend and lore, and even history (as in people's beliefs). There was this one guy, he went around letting blind people see, curing leprosy, enabling the lame to walk...what was his name?....oh, yeah Vespasian...wait, no...it'll come to me. Gods of healing are extremely popular. In some versions, the Holy Grail is basically a cup that turns any liquid into a healing potion. I've read and even helped translate medieval prayers for stopping the flow of blood and closing wounds. Heck, there a plenty of people that believe in faith-based healing right now.

As I'm sure you know, D&D is pretty obviously not a mechanism for re-creating fantasy literature. Its an adventure game with fantasy trappings (as well as mythology). Few sources (those not inspired by D&D) feature parties of diverse adventurers crawling through dungeons vast (there is that one big source, though). If we went by the majority of sources, one player at the table would get to be the "Hero" everyone else would (at best) get to play the "Sidekick" or "Companion" class (Wizards would be NPCs only.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

we are still not on the same page. A cleric has never been necessary to gameplay, there are just consequences for not having one. I want that to remain in the game.

...so then you don't want a cleric to be necessary to gameplay, after all? Well, then, I guess we are basically on the same page.

So again for me your solutions are altering the game that just deviates too much from what I consider the experience of D&D to be.

So your experience of D&D cannot abide the existence of a mechanic that, for instance, allows a fighter to actively parry a blow? And you believe this experience of D&D must be the basic experience of D&D?

Maybe others won't feel as I do, but I think the recent turn against HD suggests folks largely want a return to the classic approach to clerics, damage and healing. But again, there is no problem having an optional rule in there that does exactly what you suggest, that should keep us both happy. I just don't want to it to be in the default.

I've never been a big fan of 5e's HD, but that doesn't mean that I want to make the party cleric something that is mandated to exist lest the party suffer for it. I'm also still not sure why mandating a cleric is something that is better in the basic rules than as a standard or advanced option -- how does that help the basic version achieve its goals?