+2 to cha and no counter balance stat: LA +0

[Sigurd]

I think the core of your suggestion is that while it might be la 0 it is NOT LA1.

Do it if it enhances your game background.

 

[notjer]

Elflings get a +2 to charisma.

 

[Vrecknidj]

There's this lecture in the books about avoiding metagaming, and, I understand, the idea is that we're to avoid it during play. But, it's impossible. (I'm going somewhere with this, honestly.) When you play a character who takes a feat at 3rd level for no other reason than because it's a prerequisite for a feat that you want at 6th level, or to get into a prestige class later, then, you're metagaming--at least, in a way.

So, here's my advice. If you have a race that has as its only bonus a +2 to Charisma, I don't see why it has to be a problem. Sure, players may be drawn to play it if they want to play a Sorcerer, Bard or Paladin. But, if you write the description of the race such that they have this innate robustness to their personalities, but lack an innate affinity for magic, you've already given your players a hint. And if you say that they tend to be selfish and avoid positions of leadership, you've given another hint. Now, if someone wants to play this race and a Sorcerer, that player has a little work to do, to convince you why this person is a Sorcerer despite the innate lack for magic.

And, without the human's bonus feat, or another race's darkvision or low-light vision, or any of the other racial traits, the plain old +2 to Charisma ain't much.

On top of all that, you can say that the race's favored class is fighter or rogue or something like that. This encourages players to avoid the Sorcerer or Paladin yet a bit more. A bard, perhaps, fits with the rogue-like theme, and certainly is less magically talented than the Sorcerer. And, many argue, the bard is one of the weakest classes, so a +2 to Charisma is actually a nice balance, probably.

So, you still have a player that wants to play this race and play a Sorcerer. That's fine. This person is an outcast, perhaps, from his society, and whatever this implies in the game is something that you (the DM) keeps track of and applies in game when it's appropriate.

I think a race with no bonus but a +2 Charisma is eminently do-able.

Dave

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Both of these quotes are wise. Also, if the OP wants a +Cha Sorcerer race without LA that is fair, he can consider Star Elves, +2 Cha and -2 Con (and some other fun specials). That's balanced, since the Con hit hurts badly to anyone who wants the Charisma (like a Sorcerer)

Yeah, but those stats would hurt badly to EVERYONE. That race would be abysmal unless it had some pretty radical specials. They'd make decent sorcerers or bards, ok paladins, and total crap everything else. OTOH, the core races (aside from the half-breeds) make a few really great choices, and decent or ok on everything else. Core elves are fine because very few classes can get away with having +2 dex not help them out; +2 cha however only helps cha casters and paladins.

Am I the only person that doesn't think just because a race has a +casting stat or +casting advantage doesn't mean it's a no-brainer? I've seen people make human illusionists just because they hate gnomes, and I've seen people choose gnome because they are clearly the best race for the class, from both an RP and Min/Max perspective.

I would never choose a star elf (again, unless the specials rock), but if it didn't have -2 con and had, say, -2 str, I would choose it sometimes (but not every time). Reason being people don't always choose the thing with the bonus to their main stat, and because I still have other powerful options like a gnome sorcerer who slings illusions, or a human sorcerer who gets an extra feat and skill, allowing me to further dump my Int and jack up my Dex, Con, and Cha.

I say roll out the +2 cha race, give it one or two mechanical things that set it apart from "human with +2 cha", and call it a day.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Summon Familiar (tiny useless pet; not as strong as the wizard/sorceror summon familiar)) that grants you +2 Charisma.

That rocks. Like a little cutesy stuffed animal looking thing that sits on your shoulder. Or like the ugliest, sickliest dog you've ever seen, it just limps after the character and never dies, and it's always 10 feet behind you. Always.

 

[robberbaron]

I think the OP's idea of +2 CHA for no LA is unbroken but, being the cynical type I am, I would question the motives behind the question.

Moon-Lancer, if you are thinking of a new race for your campaign then I'd say do it if you want, it won't cause you any problems, besides having fewer Human Bards & Sorcerers.

If the question comes from a player's desire to get a free +2 CHA then, as a DM, I would probably tell the player to bugger off.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, but those stats would hurt badly to EVERYONE. That race would be abysmal unless it had some pretty radical specials. They'd make decent sorcerers or bards, ok paladins, and total crap everything else. OTOH, the core races (aside from the half-breeds) make a few really great choices, and decent or ok on everything else. Core elves are fine because very few classes can get away with having +2 dex not help them out; +2 cha however only helps cha casters and paladins.

Am I the only person that doesn't think just because a race has a +casting stat or +casting advantage doesn't mean it's a no-brainer? I've seen people make human illusionists just because they hate gnomes, and I've seen people choose gnome because they are clearly the best race for the class, from both an RP and Min/Max perspective.

I would never choose a star elf (again, unless the specials rock), but if it didn't have -2 con and had, say, -2 str, I would choose it sometimes (but not every time). Reason being people don't always choose the thing with the bonus to their main stat, and because I still have other powerful options like a gnome sorcerer who slings illusions, or a human sorcerer who gets an extra feat and skill, allowing me to further dump my Int and jack up my Dex, Con, and Cha.

I say roll out the +2 cha race, give it one or two mechanical things that set it apart from "human with +2 cha", and call it a day.

Gnomes are size small. That is enough of a penalty that I would say they are not clearly the best illusionists. As for Star Elves, they are clearly more playable than the core PHB elves.

If you play with point buy, which it seems you do considering the the "skill, allowing me to further dump my Int and jack up my Dex, Con, and Cha", then you should realise that the +2 Cha will actually lead to a higher total Dex, Con, and Cha even if you take 2 higher Int for more skill points (unnecessary for most Sorcerers). Frex--Human Sorcerer who wants 18 Cha, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 10 Int (effectively 12 Int for skill points due to Human) pays 34 points just for those stats (yikes! nothing left over for Wis or Str, even in a high PB game). If you play a +2 Cha no penalty race, you can do 18 Cha, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 12 Int (strictly better than being a human with 10 Int, since you have the same SP and that's also a bonus on Int-based skills) for 30 points. Now who's saving points?

 

[Nifft]

Gnomes are size small. That is enough of a penalty that I would say they are not clearly the best illusionists.

+1 AC, +1 attack, +4 hide, +50% carrying capacity for appropriately sized equipment, and a penalty on checks I won't ever make anyway thanks to my BAB? How is that a net penalty?

My scorching ray hits just as hard as yours, but my attack is at +1 thanks to size.

Halfling and Gnome spellcasters are excellent.

All IMHO, -- N

 

[Moon-Lancer]

my intention is to make a half elf race with kind of a pirate swashbuckling feel. Also It would be an inventive to play a half elf. Lots of people I have talked to feel they are too weak.

at first I was thinking a +1 to cha but if a +2 to cha isn't worth a counter negative stat then a +2 cha might be better.

Half-Elves

Also see the Half-Elf monster listing.

* Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet.
* Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
* Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
* +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
* +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
* Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
* Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
* Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count.

I was pretty much going just going to add a +2 to cha on top of this, and give them perform as a class skill no matter the class. The skills would change a bit too, but would retain a cumulative +7 skill bonus divided among varies skills.

They would be stronger, no doubt about it. but would they be stronger then a dwarf (I see the dwarf as being the strongest race in phb)?

 

[Rystil Arden]

+1 AC, +1 attack, +4 hide, +50% carrying capacity for appropriately sized equipment, and a penalty on checks I won't ever make anyway thanks to my BAB? How is that a net penalty?

My scorching ray hits just as hard as yours, but my attack is at +1 thanks to size.

Halfling and Gnome spellcasters are excellent.

All IMHO, -- N

The penalty on those checks is problematic--it nearly got my small-size character killed in SCAP. At low levels when the BAB hit is less noticable, the -4 is massively massively noticable (Compare at level 2--Str 16 Fighter Grapple is +5, Str 14 Cleric Grapple is +3, Str 10 Human Wizard Grapple is +1, make the Wizard a gnome/halfling and the Grapple becomes -4!) So the Fighter has only a 64% chance to grab the human Wizard, but an 86.25% chance to grab the gnome or halfling. That's an extreme disadvantage.

Add to that slower movement speed for bad escapage (and possibly the old adage about the two men running away from the bear, unless your group also has a heavy armour guy).

Being small is a distinct disadvantage. It's one of the reasons that halflings are not a good choice for almost any class (another is their humanlike vision, which hurts for a Rogue when everything except Halflings and Humans in the whole MM has something better).