+2 to cha and no counter balance stat: LA +0

[Rystil Arden]

my intention is to make a half elf race with kind of a pirate swashbuckling feel. Also It would be an inventive to play a half elf. Lots of people I have talked to feel they are too weak.

at first I was thinking a +1 to cha but if a +2 to cha isn't worth a counter negative stat then a +2 cha might be better.




I was pretty much going just going to add a +2 to cha on top of this, and give them perform as a class skill no matter the class. The skills would change a bit too, but would retain a cumulative +7 skill bonus divided among varies skills.

They would be stronger, no doubt about it. but would they be stronger then a dwarf (I see the dwarf as being the strongest race in phb)?

They wouldn't beat the dwarf at the classes the dwarf would want to play because the two races have strengths in opposite areas (what with -2 vs +2 Cha), but they would be more problematic than the dwarf in total when playing a Charisma caster due to the uncountered casting stat bonus. Why not just give a +1 bonus to all Charisma-based skills? That way you don't have to deal with the casters leeching a higher casting stat.

 

[Nifft]

So the Fighter has only a 64% chance to grab the human Wizard, but an 86.25% chance to grab the gnome or halfling. That's an extreme disadvantage.

At low levels, I'll grant this is true.

At high levels, grapple is negated by spells, as is movement rate -- starting around level 10, between phantom steed and overland flight, it's compensated for entirely. The advantages stick around, though, and just get better at higher level.

That's just IMX. Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

At low levels, I'll grant this is true.

At high levels, grapple is negated by spells, as is movement rate -- starting around level 10, between phantom steed and overland flight, it's compensated for entirely. The advantages stick around, though, and just get better at higher level.

That's just IMX. Cheers, -- N

And I'll grant you high levels as well--not least of which because you can just use magic to change into something not Small anymore, although many things change dramatically at high levels.

However, in my experience, the levels when Small creatures are at a huge disadvantage are more prevalent and take up a larger portion of a campaign's sessions, plus you have to live through the low levels to reach the high except in odd circumstances (and there's lots of other tricks you can do with a character who starts at high levels without having to play through the low).

 

[Nifft]

However, in my experience, the levels when Small creatures are at a huge disadvantage are more prevalent and take up a larger portion of a campaign's sessions

... and the reason behind our difference of opinion becomes crystal clear!

I wonder how small races could get a boost at lower level but also a bit more of a penalty at high levels. (But that's prolly a topic for a different thread...)

Anyway. Giving half-elves +2 Charisma is technically too strong IMHO, because Sorcerers and Bards exist (mainly Sorcerers though). However, IMHO Sorcerers are on the weak side, so the +2 Charisma boost is more palatable than a +2 Int or +2 Wis boost would be.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

... and the reason behind our difference of opinion becomes crystal clear!

I wonder how small races could get a boost at lower level but also a bit more of a penalty at high levels. (But that's prolly a topic for a different thread...)

Anyway. Giving half-elves +2 Charisma is technically too strong IMHO, because Sorcerers and Bards exist (mainly Sorcerers though). However, IMHO Sorcerers are on the weak side, so the +2 Charisma boost is more palatable than a +2 Int or +2 Wis boost would be.

Cheers, -- N

Wow, you play more games at levels 10+ and below? More power to you! I'm actually not one of those who dislikes high levels like most people (if the polls are any indication), so I think that's cool. As to changing small races to balance them more across levels of play, it's important to note that WotC thinks (though in the case of Halflings they didn't follow through) that they gave the small races extra abilities to balance out the penalty of being Small (and they mentioned this in a design discussion in Savage Species, though admittedly that book is not the best place to discuss good design!). However, I do agree that rebalancing Small could be a neat idea.

 

[DreadArchon]

Why not just give a +1 bonus to all Charisma-based skills? That way you don't have to deal with the casters leeching a higher casting stat.

Presumably, he, like myself, does not consider the boon to Cha casters to be overpowered.

 

[Nifft]

Wow, you play more games at levels 10+ and below? More power to you! I'm actually not one of those who dislikes high levels like most people (if the polls are any indication), so I think that's cool.

Current group is level 16, but they've spent a lot more time at levels 10->16 than they did at levels 3->9. Same number of levels in each case.

Yeah, I like higher level play. Plans are for this group to go up to 30 or so. Hopefully there will be some consensus on sane Epic rules before they hit 21...

As to changing small races to balance them more across levels of play, it's important to note that WotC thinks (though in the case of Halflings they didn't follow through) that they gave the small races extra abilities to balance out the penalty of being Small (and they mentioned this in a design discussion in Savage Species, though admittedly that book is not the best place to discuss good design!). However, I do agree that rebalancing Small could be a neat idea.

Yeah. I'm thinking that a new thread is necessary for that though...

-- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Current group is level 16, but they've spent a lot more time at levels 10->16 than they did at levels 3->9. Same number of levels in each case.

Yeah, I like higher level play. Plans are for this group to go up to 30 or so. Hopefully there will be some consensus on sane Epic rules before they hit 21...




Yeah. I'm thinking that a new thread is necessary for that though...

-- N

Yeah, whatever you do, don't go far past 20 with the ELH rules. They work okay for the first few levels, but by 30 they are terribly broken, and by 40 they are utter garbage. My current main group has been long-stalled at or around 21 due to people moving.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, whatever you do, don't go far past 20 with the ELH rules. They work okay for the first few levels, but by 30 they are terribly broken, and by 40 they are utter garbage. My current main group has been long-stalled at or around 21 due to people moving.

I look forward to tapping your insights!

Back on topic: IMHO it really depends what classes and options are available. If you're mostly limited to Core rules, then the Sorcerer and Paladin are on the weak side, and +2 Charisma -- even if it's over and above what a Half Elf already gets* -- is probably not going to break anything.

If various other things are allowed, such as Snowflake Wardance or Blue Dragon Lineage or even Heritage feats in general, I'd re-consider. Basically, there are a lot of supplements that boost both Sorcerers and the value of Charisma. But if you don't allow those, then Charisma is weak.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

I look forward to tapping your insights!

Back on topic: IMHO it really depends what classes and options are available. If you're mostly limited to Core rules, then the Sorcerer and Paladin are on the weak side, and +2 Charisma -- even if it's over and above what a Half Elf already gets* -- is probably not going to break anything.

If various other things are allowed, such as Snowflake Wardance or Blue Dragon Lineage or even Heritage feats in general, I'd re-consider. Basically, there are a lot of supplements that boost both Sorcerers and the value of Charisma. But if you don't allow those, then Charisma is weak.

Cheers, -- N

Snowflake Wardance, Lineages, Battledancer, Ascetic Mage, Shapechange into Nymph (Core!), Mystic Wanderer, Divine Might, etc.

I still wouldn't allow it even with core only just because you'd have to take a substantial and noticable hit to play any other race as a Sorcerer.

Perhaps it isn't a paradigm that everyone follows, but I believe that every class should always have many possible races that work well for it without a shoehorn forced race that is far and away the best, whereas it is okay if a race has a few shoehorned classes for which it is best.