DreadArchon
First Post
Y'know, even with a "free" +2 Cha, I'd still play a Human or Star Elf Sorc or Bard over a Half-Elf in most point buy situations.
+2 to cha and no counter balance stat: LA +0
- Thread starter Moon-Lancer
- Start date
Moon-Lancer
First Post
hahah 
not me, but it still feels like it could balance. That may be that i don't know any good feats for arcane casters.
not me, but it still feels like it could balance. That may be that i don't know any good feats for arcane casters.
Quartz said:
Heh, I was treating it more as a commentary on the value of turn undead with PHB feats. YMMV on that one. And I'm only going PHB stuff, because moving outside of that does change the balance. Although more to put charisma on closer to equal footing as opposed to superior footing.
There is just so much stuff that it's difficult to get a good read on it. Not only that but if you want to be inclusive you can throw 'balance' (which barely even means anything anyway in a pen and paper rpg) out the window as well.
Honestly, I would consider giving a +2 to any stat with no drawback stat with the game as it is now, if a player wanted it. One character being relatively more awesome than the others doesn't matter as long as each character has a valid niche and role to fill. And if I had my way, each race would get a +2 bonus to a different stat, and all the classes would have different 'paths', each of which used a separate stat, so that each race would be equally effective in each class, just in different ways with a different focus.
DreadArchon
First Post
That's silly. +2 Int would give you extra skill points to put into Diplomacy. I'd be more inclined towards +1 per two levels than a I would a single +1 ever--and that's assuming that I didn't just decide to put the points elsewhere, which I probably would, making it even more useful (as compared to +2 Cha). Or, hey, do both--2 points in Diplomacy at level 1, immediately making Int better than Cha here, and that bonus skill point elsewhere at future levels.Quartz said:
Edit: On Human casters: It's not just the feat (which I'd probably put towards Spell Penetration or Eschew Materials or somesuch), that skill point is nice for a class that only gets two otherwise (or, for bards, a class based somewhat on being a skillhorse, though I'd value the feat higher for a bard too--Song of the Heart, Melodic Casting, etc.).
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Old Gumphrey
First Post
Rystil Arden said:
LOL!!!
Wow, no seriously, I laughed really hard when I saw that. Honestly if you're a gnome illusionist and you get grappled, it's your fault. Why the hell don't you look like a buff human dude with a bow, or maybe a full-plated dwarf? That's deterrant enough right there. Plus why is your party just standing around letting you get grappled? Sounds like a group/tactics problem a lot more than an actual penalty. Any time I send grapplers after a spellcaster, that grappler dies with pain 1-2 rounds later because the party understands that the grappler loses his dex bonus to AC against them. Rogues full attack sneak attack. Warriors beat them down, or grapple them back. Etc.
"Here is free attack bonus and AC. Your penalty is more hit points, +1 illusion DCs, less strength, and low grapple checks. Now your staff only does 1d4-2."
*chuckle*
Rystil Arden
First Post
Or sometimes, you are the group's ranged combat expert and you are jumped by a flying Grell, or attacked from above by a Choker (with Quickness for extra death goodness) or an Assassin Vine, or pulled underwater by a tentacled creature that lives underwater, or otherwise attacked by something that isn't easily accessible to the rest of the party. Most typical groups tend not to have an archery fan (some do, but more than half don't), in which case the grappled caster tends to be the ranged specialist, and at the lowest levels, that means everyone else has at most a longbow and a crossbow if you're lucky. I have seen this happen. There's nothing more frustrating than being grappled by a flying Grell in the air while the 16 Strength (20 in Rage) 12 Dex Barbarian tries her best to shoot 1d8 arrows instead of 2d6+7 Greatsword attacks, the Rogue can't even think about Sneak Attacks out of 30 feet, and the Cleric can't get up there to heal you and didn't buy a ranged weapon because he splurged on the best armour he could find.Old Gumphrey said:
There's also that whole being Swallowed Whole thing.
Old Gumphrey
First Post
Really, more than half? Sounds well-researched.
To me it sounds like you're letting personal experience dictate what is or is not a disadvantage. The truth is, -4 on grapples isn't that big of a deal to a wizard. Your grapple is ALREADY the worst in the whole party. Being 4 points less isn't going to hurt you. If you were hoping to build a monk/barbarian/fighter/reaping mauler grapple jockey with a race of gnome or halfling, then yeah that's a pretty big disadvantage. But casters? Not so much.
Plus last time I checked, getting solo grappled by a monster is pretty much game over for any class or character that isn't specifically designed to be good at grappling. Don't forget that grappling something means you have to enter its space. It doesn't specifically mean that a grell can't grab you up with its tentacles, it means that by the rules it's sharing your square (IE a big pile of grabbers are touching you) and your party gets to chop. It also takes a standard action to move the grapple, so your party has at LEAST one round to reliably free you before the very common flying grappler opponent whisks you away.
I'm not going to list every option that'll help you out, but here's a few of the major ones:
-Freedom of Movement
-Dimension Door/Teleport (this option effectively makes you immune to grappling)
-Fly
-Prepare Stilled spells and use Eschew Materials--this combo borders on broken when using a sorcerer, grappling means nothing to you except some damage
-Take ranks in Escape Artist
-Enlarge Person
-Wide variety of illusion spells that will make you appear as though you are large and powerful and not small and tasty
-Carry the material components for Suggestion in your hand at all times (only works on things with a language)
-Non-core options such as Fearsome Grapple
After around 9th level you should basically be immune to grappling. But I'll grant you this: in a campaign where 25-50% of your fights are with flying grappling creatures and your party is too dull to design characters good at fighting them, then you are correct: that -4 grapple check hurts.
As for swallow whole...if I'm a purple worm, I'm going to eat the biggest thing in a party, not the smallest. When my thought process goes something like
I'm not going to go after some little gnome when there's a nice juicy 7-foot tall barbarian standing right next to him. That's just metagaming. Purple worms don't know they can much more easily eat the gnome. They know there's a bunch of small things standing around, but one of the small things is BIGGER and thus juicier than the rest.
Rystil Arden
First Post
On the other hand, if I'm the Giant Toad in the moathouse encounter, I'm going to eat the halfling because I can't eat Medium-sized creatures.
Yes, Freedom of Movement works. You don't have it until level 7 though. Same with the porting spells.
Not at all helpful against flying grapplers. If anything, it makes you easier to snatch away from the rest of the group.
Nah, not really. You still have to make a non-trivial-at-low-levels Concentration check, and you're using up slots one level higher. That's more than just 'some damage'.
Escape Artist is not permissible except when escaping--it doesn't actually prevent the grapple or a pin. All the ranks of Escape Artist in the world are utterly worthless if you're pinned and can't take the action to try to escape until level 12
Huh? But then you aren't size small, so that isn't showing anything. It's also a fairly inefficient spell to cast--the full round casting time means that you'll be interrupted, and then it gives you -2 Dex and you can't use the Str much, and the duration isn't long enough to just keep it up. Besides, the non-Smalls get reach from the spell, so it's much better saved for them.
Disguise Self won't, and the others require Concentration to maintain.
You already cover one of the weaknesses. Another is that you're wasting a hand on a snake's tongue and a bit of honeycomb that you may need to drop if the battle doesn't start with Suggestion.
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