20 vs 18

Your point is sort of...well, his point really. Except for the NAD part.

Actualklky, it isno t really at all, but especially the NAD part.

It is a very good post and shows my point rather clearly. With an 18, you have a lot more room for breadth and options, those that do not exist in a 20 build.

Maybe we should use the A and V shaped classes for 18 and 20 builds? 18 being the A build, with mroe options as you go on in yoru career, with the 20 being V, a lot of power, but not really having many options later.

Would work for me. But would be confusing.
 

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I'm going to disagree with most posters, and say you should almost always take the 20. ...
Let's say there was a feat that gave you an unconditional +1 attack and +1 damage. What would you possibly take over it?

That's not a valid comparison. Ability scores aren't feats and the opportunity costs are different. But, since you disagreed with me who said you should take a 19 (post-racial), your math is still flawed because it's only every other four levels of improvement. At 4th-7th level, there's no gain in choosing the 20 stat, yet always a significant cost.
 

You can't say that ability distribution A is alsways better than B. It depends on a whole lot of things. No particlular order.

  • starting level
  • ending level
  • your race
  • the feats you want
  • the weapon type you want to use, sometimes implement
  • PP
  • ED
  • class build
  • MCing
  • hybriding
  • etc.
What I can say is that I've seen more builds at WotC CharOp with a post-racial 18 than with a 20.
 

I was somewhat agnostic on the issue, until yesterday. Personally, I build my PCs (when I make one, I typically DM but since the Character Builder came out, I've built a few just to see) I use 20s after racial modifiers.

I've been running a paragon level (PCs are 15th level) adventure for the past several game sessions, and for the past few sessions all the encounters have been with two or more levels above the PCs. The lack of variety was getting to me (and them) so I exercised my god-given rights as a DM and rebuilt several of the encounters. I also increased the experience awards to level them faster so they were more on par with the encounters as designed in the adventure.

So far, so good. So yesterday I'm running a level +1 encounter. It's the first encounter of the day, so they have everything. And yet, they're not hitting very often. I do some on the spot calculations, and I've got a Paladin and an Invoker only hitting the monsters on a 16 or higher. By contrast the monsters are hitting on a 7 or 8.

What?

Durring a break, I took a look at the character sheet. The magic items are level appropriate, the math is right. (For a while I thought that maybe they weren't equipping the right item in the CB.) Nope, the math is fine. And then I looked at the ability scores. At 25th level the paladin didn't have a 20 in either strength or charisma, the stats she uses to attack with the most. Instead of a +5 or a +6, she had a +3 in one and a +4 in the other. Now, the paladin has powers using both str and cha, so it would be difficult to get great bonuses on both.

Bumping one of those stats to a 20 and then emphasizing that stat for attacking would have gone a long ways to increasing the paladin's accuracy.
 

That's not a valid comparison. Ability scores aren't feats and the opportunity costs are different. But, since you disagreed with me who said you should take a 19 (post-racial), your math is still flawed because it's only every other four levels of improvement. At 4th-7th level, there's no gain in choosing the 20 stat, yet always a significant cost.

On the other hand, the 20 over the 19 has +1 to hit and damage at levels 1-3, 8-10, 14-17, 21-23, 28-30 or 15 levels out of 30.

It really depends on class and party makeup.

As an example, a 20 starting Int Hybrid Swordmage|Wizard has great AC, great to hit, good damage, great Reflex. He isn't really losing much with a 20 starting ability score. A couple of points defense in Fort and Will. This is especially true considering the number of enemy only bursts a swordmage|wizard can pump out. It doesn't matter that he has some weaknesses, he's doing decent damage against a lot of foes and shortening encounters most encounters.

There are some builds where 18 is better, some where 19 is better, and some where 20 is better when discussing an optimal build.

But, any class can use a 20 starting ability score and be an effective PC. The PC will have other weaknesses and will miss out on some feats, but that doesn't mean that a build cannot be done that cannot be fun to play and is effective. Just not optimal.
 

Our party has a bunch of (starting stats, please remember we are only talking about starting stats here) 18's and two 16's (the 16's being racial mismatches). In truth, the 16's did just fine, though they did need some "compensation"...but not much.

I cant comment on whether a 20 is "essential", but I agree with an earlier observation that not alot of the stuff you see on the Char-op boards has 20's in the primary stat, or at least, if 20 was essential, you would see alot more.

I think the problem is the feat requirements. You go 20 in the primary, it dont leave alot for the secondary, which in turn leaves almost nothing for those stats you get just to qualify for certain feats. Im one of those guys with stupid amounts of "theoretical" builds in the character builder, and I cant think of once that I have had a starting 20, because every time I have tried it always came down to the same thing : there was always one feat I wanted which was dependent on a tertiary stat.

In fact, I often have an 18 (post racial) primary with a 16 (post racial) secondary just to leave those other stats with enough points.

What if your game is really strong on skills? You end up nerfing all but your primary stat skills. What if your GM is tough on extended rests? Healing surges take on new importance, and you left your Con on 10.

If you want a 20 and that extra +1/+1 on your attacks, go for it. But be aware that you choices are going to be narrow, and there is a good chance you will be heartbroken when you realize that feat you want isnt available, and that stats are more than just "those things that back you classes attacks".
 
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I've been running a paragon level (PCs are 15th level) adventure for the past several game sessions,...

Durring a break, I took a look at the character sheet. The magic items are level appropriate, the math is right. (For a while I thought that maybe they weren't equipping the right item in the CB.) Nope, the math is fine. And then I looked at the ability scores. At 25th level the paladin didn't have a 20 in either strength or charisma, the stats she uses to attack with the most.

I'm assuming you mean at 15th level. That...is a lot more extreme than we're talking about here.

By 15th level, the character has 5 stat bumps. So a character with an 19 or 20 should have a +6 to hit; a character with a 17 or 18 will have a +5, and with a 15 or 16 will have a +4.

If the paladin doesn't have a 20 in either primary, that means the player started with a post-racial -14- (or lower) in her highest primary, which is just crazy. In 3.5, you could get away with crazy-low stat spreads and make up the difference by playing a class that didn't need to roll to hit or just rely on a fighter's full BAB combined with magic items (and since each stat had something huge to reccomend it to most characters--OAs and carrying capacity for strength, HPs and fort for con, languages and skills for Int, reflex and AC for dex, pereption and will saves for wis, and the crazy/broken leadership feat for Cha, there were some reasons to do so)--but that's totally not the case in 4e, where even a balanced spread should look something like (postracial) 16/16/14/13/13/9. And while some 16 starting stats are viable, they should -really- make sure to take Expertise early.
 

I was somewhat agnostic on the issue, until yesterday. Personally, I build my PCs (when I make one, I typically DM but since the Character Builder came out, I've built a few just to see) I use 20s after racial modifiers.

I've been running a paragon level (PCs are 15th level) adventure for the past several game sessions, and for the past few sessions all the encounters have been with two or more levels above the PCs. The lack of variety was getting to me (and them) so I exercised my god-given rights as a DM and rebuilt several of the encounters. I also increased the experience awards to level them faster so they were more on par with the encounters as designed in the adventure.

So far, so good. So yesterday I'm running a level +1 encounter. It's the first encounter of the day, so they have everything. And yet, they're not hitting very often. I do some on the spot calculations, and I've got a Paladin and an Invoker only hitting the monsters on a 16 or higher. By contrast the monsters are hitting on a 7 or 8.

What?

Durring a break, I took a look at the character sheet. The magic items are level appropriate, the math is right. (For a while I thought that maybe they weren't equipping the right item in the CB.) Nope, the math is fine. And then I looked at the ability scores. At 25th 15th level the paladin didn't have a 20 in either strength or charisma, the stats she uses to attack with the most. Instead of a +5 or a +6, she had a +3 in one and a +4 in the other. Now, the paladin has powers using both str and cha, so it would be difficult to get great bonuses on both.

Bumping one of those stats to a 20 and then emphasizing that stat for attacking would have gone a long ways to increasing the paladin's accuracy.

Boy you should watch your players' chars more closely. The problem is not that he is playing a Baladin (STR/CHA) but that he doesn't know how crippling those ability scores are. (Even worse he might be using implement and weapon attacks and maybe the weapon and/or the implement is outdated pluswise.) You really should explain the "problem" to your player and help him rebuild his char.
 

Yes, I mean 15. Darn typos.

Actually, I looked at the paladin on the CB, and she hasn't bumped up str and cha every time she gets a stat bump. However, neither the weapon nor the implement (she doesn't have a lot of implement powers anyways) are outdated. Those are things I can handle. It's weird, I've never been shocked that someone wasn't enough of a munchkin.

What I did in subsquent encounters was lower the monster's defenses as a temporary stop gap for everyone. I may continue this rather than try to play someone's PC for them. I mean, their just trying to play well-rounded characters. That seems like something I should encourage.
 

I always recommend a 20 starting stat, and always raise it and your secondary. Of course, most people end up watering that down and pick a 19 or even an 18. And the character optimizers find lots of (valid) reasons to deviate. And that's kind of the point.

People who are interested in the game mechanics can figure out for themselves if losing attack/damage is worth it. They'll ignore the advice and there's no problem. On the other hand, people for whom character optimization is just a required filler for the game, people, like this:
Boy you should watch your players' chars more closely. The problem is not that he is playing a Baladin (STR/CHA) but that he doesn't know how crippling those ability scores are. (Even worse he might be using implement and weapon attacks and maybe the weapon and/or the implement is outdated pluswise.) You really should explain the "problem" to your player and help him rebuild his char.

Actually, I looked at the paladin on the CB, and she hasn't bumped up str and cha every time she gets a stat bump. However, neither the weapon nor the implement (she doesn't have a lot of implement powers anyways) are outdated. Those are things I can handle. It's weird, I've never been shocked that someone wasn't enough of a munchkin.

Well, if they just pick a 20 and raise it, they'll miss a few powerful feats and lose a (usually minor) bit of secondary power, but that's OK. They will, however, remain playable and reasonable relevant in comparison to their friends that do optimize.

Recommend a 20/(14 or 16) starting stat and the primary/secondary stats should always be raised. Not because it's best, but because it's safe for those that don't care - those that care can figure it out themselves.

What I did in subsquent encounters was lower the monster's defenses as a temporary stop gap for everyone. I may continue this rather than try to play someone's PC for them. I mean, their just trying to play well-rounded characters. That seems like something I should encourage.
A big part of 4e is tactical combat. Munchkin is a pejorative term; I think you should encourage everyone to make an effort to participate - and that means a bare minimum of optimization. Think of it this way: doing otherwise undermines the balance and gameplay of this major component, and that's not fair to those that are trying to play. To me it undermines flavor too; I expect bad guys to actually want to win and if your PC is having great character development in several directions but just isn't developing into an adventurer, the PC should retire or not be surprised when he dies. But then, I like slightly harsh campaigns :-).

Unless all the players have similarly gimped attacks, you should really try to fix the problem since it's just going to diverge and get even worse. 4e doesn't work well if people distribute stats based on some abstract notion rather than as dictated by the build.

A few things you can do:

  • The player may just not care about mechanics and may be happy to let you fix them.
  • Or, if he does care, it's OK to put a little pressure on him (i.e. have him less effective in combat) - it's a cooperative game and it's his job too (not just yours) to be a team player. By insisting on a build that just doesn't conform to 4e expectations he is putting an extra burden on you and the others.
  • You could also make a special exception for his build and just raise his stats arbitrarily: the CB will happily accept (house-ruled) stats that are even over 20 at level 1, so whatever you think is reasonable goes (just make sure it's still less powerful than those that are trying to play by the rules, to be fair - at least 1, maybe 2 lower primary stat modifier should suffice to avoid encouraging others to be similarly difficult). Call it a 4e class design error; it doesn't matter.
  • I also advocate the house-rule whereby all stats rise at levels 4/8/14/18/24/28 and not just two. It avoids these tricky player errors, it avoids the socially tricky moment of you implying "your character sucks", it avoids skills and NADs from diverging, and it's easy to implement in the CB (just don't use the ability score increase boxes but instead raise all scores by one). Finally, it fixes a few of those MAD builds that ask a player to shoot themselves in the foot. A character with low primary stats will still be weaker, but at least he won't fall ever further behind. Also, if someone doesn't preplan his character for 20 levels, he'll still eventually get the stat prereqs for most feats, which is nice too. Note that you may want to tweak the barbarian's agility since that feature relies on light armor wearing barbarians that don't get Dex rises.
 
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