2006 WotC D&D Product Survivor - Round 5

[Turjan]

Are they for you? Dunno. Guess it depends how often you'd use preprinted battle maps. I'm not specifically trying to sell you on 'em; just saying it'd be a mistake to dismiss them purely due to "minis influence."

Fair enough. Perhaps, I should just look at one of them. Not that I'd never buy stuff just because I'm curious. Although it should contain a theme I'd actually use .

 

[catsclaw227]

This discussion brings me to question the sense of these "survivor" threads. I'm not sure whether the "Fantastic Locations" products are still in the race because they are better than the products that have been voted off so far, or because most people here on EN World didn't buy them. At least I won't vote them off as I was never interested in them in the first place - mainly because of their miniature ties - and I don't vote against products I don't know well.

QFT -- I only voted the Fantastic Location item off because of its usefulness to my game, not necessarily because I think it sucked. If I played the mini game or had need for a location for my game (I don't because I am running ST), then I would likely keep them around.

Who knows, maybe I will buy one or two to use when I homebrew again.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Fantastic Locations: Dragondown Grotto - and it's finally in the lead.

 

[Nyaricus]

I also need to look at my Cityscape again to see what everyone hated so much.

It wasn't for the frickin' awesome art, in any case

 

[RodneyThompson]

I think we've hit an interesting plateau in the game. We have about 7 entries within 4 votes of each other. No run away "losers."

In fact the 2nd place book right now is a book that I haven't seen any complaints about in the thread.

I've been keeping an eye on these threads for purely egotistical reasons, and I have to admit I'm shocked to see Dragon Magic in second right now...since no one's complained once about it in the threads so far, and it's not even been close to being voted off the island in previous rounds.

I think that some people are voting things off based on knee-jerk reactionism rather than thinking about the actual quality of the books. There's no way I would have ever voted Tome of Battle out before, say, any of the Fantastic Locations books. Not in a million years. I haven't even allowed any Tome of Battle stuff in my game, but it's a hell of a better candidate for book of the year than some corner-case Fantastic Locations. This isn't to say the Fantastic Locations are bad by any stretch of the imagination, they're just more niche. I find it hard to believe that a niche product could beat out a full-blown sourcebook with an entirely new set of mechanics and excellent production values for product of the year.

 

[delericho]

"Scourge of the Howling Horde". It was a really nice idea, and a product that absolutely should be done. And I don't even mind the price point.

But the execution was just abysmal. Too few encounters for an adventure of that size, far too many stat block errors, poor editing in other places (the hobgoblins are sparing, are they? Sparing what?), and a background that was unacceptably dark for a black-and-white product (the exact same background, in colour, is used in "Shattered Gates of Slaughtergaard", and looks really good there).

Bad, bad, bad.

I suspect that once SotHH is gone, I'll stop voting. The rest of the products in the list I either didn't buy (Fantastic Locations, Dragon Magic), or was very happy with (Red Hand of Doom, Fiendish Codices).

 

[Arnwyn]

I also need to look at my Cityscape again to see what everyone hated so much.

I'm surprised "city damage" hasn't come up a lot more.

My decision not to buy them was more based on what I saw of "mixed use" maps in Dungeon or Dragon. They looked different from most RPG maps, with funny walls and obstacles everywhere. If this is not the case with the FL maps, tell me .

They are.

The FL maps do indeed contain a lot of obstacles--rough terrain, barriers, in some cases more exotic stuff like narow ice bridges or lava streams--but I don't know if that makes 'em that much different from other RPG maps.

It does.

Begin the deathwatch for the Fantastic Locations products. They're DDM products with a D&D label slapped onto them as an afterthought.

Exactly so. I'll start with the top of the list, and work down. Buy-bye, Dragondown Grotto!

 

[blargney the second]

I find it hard to believe that a niche product could beat out a full-blown sourcebook with an entirely new set of mechanics and excellent production values for product of the year.

These survivor threads have nothing to do with determining the best product of the year. They contain exactly as much meaning as the game shows on TV: none.

I think it's best to view these as entertainment threads, rather than anything remotely resembling market research.
-blarg

 

[Endur]

Spoilers For Frostfell Rift

So at the risk of hijacking, what element of the story did you feel was "horrible"? Was it the fact that it wasn't tied together into a single "mini-module," like the previous ones? Since if that's the case, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed from here on out.

That was it. And I suspect you had no choice on that. I would have much preferred a single mini-module with the great presentation from the battle maps instead of the 8 encounters.

On the plus side, you do get bonus points for putting a Minotaur and several bugbears on the Caves of Chaos map. And for making one of the frozen creatures on the Frostfell rift map releasable.

I do not play the minis game, but I really like the battle maps for RPG purposes. They are much better than drawing your own battle maps with a marker.

I think it would be great if every adventure came with a pre-printed battle map, or one that is downloadable and printable.

 

[Glyfair]

I've been keeping an eye on these threads for purely egotistical reasons, and I have to admit I'm shocked to see Dragon Magic in second right now...since no one's complained once about it in the threads so far, and it's not even been close to being voted off the island in previous rounds.

I have seen several comments, but none giving any reasons (just "Dragon Magic" was bad).

There's no way I would have ever voted Tome of Battle out before, say, any of the Fantastic Locations books.There's no way I would have ever voted Tome of Battle out before, say, any of the Fantastic Locations books. Not in a million years. I haven't even allowed any Tome of Battle stuff in my game, but it's a hell of a better candidate for book of the year than some corner-case Fantastic Locations. This isn't to say the Fantastic Locations are bad by any stretch of the imagination, they're just more niche. I find it hard to believe that a niche product could beat out a full-blown sourcebook with an entirely new set of mechanics and excellent production values for product of the year.

Others disagree with your reasoning. They find it to be an "entirely new set of bad mechanics" (maybe in flavor rather than actual mechanics, although I've seen comments about the mechanics).

Personally, I find it slightly suprising that Scourge of the Howling Horde wasn't voted out before Voyage of the Golden Dragon. While it has it's issues, it has one of my favorite sections in recent adventures.

One of the "chapters" has about 3 or 4 separate subplots going. The players might even completely miss 1 or 2 of them, which I like. Every single plot in an adventure shouldn't be so important the PCs have to stumble into it or miss the adventure. This is great for roleplaying focused gamers. It even adds replay value (admittedly, a somewhat rare occurance).

These survivor threads have nothing to do with determining the best product of the year. They contain exactly as much meaning as the game shows on TV: none.

I think it's best to view these as entertainment threads, rather than anything remotely resembling market research.

I agree and disagree. Yes, you should treat it as entertainment. However, I do think it remotely resembles market research (very remotely). You just have to focus on what these threads show. This won't necessarily show the best WotC product of 2006, but you can gather what is objectionable to some gamers based on the results (admittedly, of the subgroup of ENWorld users that participate in these polls).

Hmm... The FL maps do indeed contain a lot of obstacles--rough terrain, barriers, in some cases more exotic stuff like narow ice bridges or lava streams--but I don't know if that makes 'em that much different from other RPG maps. I know that I've made frequent use of them in my own games; they're fantastic (no pun intended) as battle maps for when I don't want to create my own. (A frequent occurence; I hate mapping.)

Honestly, that's what I like about them. Anyone can quickly draw a simple obstacle light battlefield. Put a few trees, a trail, a building, maybe a goal. For an interesting combat encounter area or interesting area of the PCs to explore I want obstacles and slightly obscure things like ice bridges and lava streams. Those take a lot of work to draw and battlemaps fill that niche perfectly for me.