D&D 5E (2024) 2024 Gladiator: The Narrative Dissonance

[Distracted DM]

The Gladiator is basically a mid-high level fighter. But one mid-high level fighter is not that massive a threat to multiple Players around level 5. The Archmage is the same being a near top level wizard, but that makes them a threat to mid level characters, not high level ones.

Not to mention that they lack a lot of the features that a PC has. Maybe they have one neat trick, a PC has half a dozen.

 

[Distracted DM]

I'm surprised that it's the gladiator that stood out.. it's basically the same as the 5e14 gladiator- it saw almost no changes to 5e24.

The dissonance between characters and npc humanoids is something that bothered me and people I've played with in 5e since that first Redbrand took a second attack against level 2 characters back in Phandalin. 2024 New 5e has, I think, actually cut back on this on the attack front, but then has NPC spellcasters using simplified spellcasting like other "monsters". Lets just say it doesn't lead to my idea of an archmage.

Really if there is an NPC humanoid who is actually going to be prominent I'd rather just give them class levels (perhaps simplified). Certainly it works best with my current group who are always trying to befriend random enemies.

The thug NPC statblock became pretty infamous at our tables. CR 1/2, 30hp, 2 attacks, pack tactics. But really, they have 5 hit dice. If we called them fighter-lite, they should be getting two attacks. Pack tactics, ha, well.. that's something else.

I tend to think a lot of the issues of this kind are that while NPCs don't have to follow the exact same rules as PCs they should at least feel like they do.

Same thing as above... gladiator has 15 hit dice! It's basically a level 15 fighter-lite, it SHOULD be getting 3 attacks!

Let's not forget 3e with its NPC classes, they were basically PC-lite: warriors had the same base attack bonus, but had d8 instead of d10 hit die, and no fun extras. I guess in short, they were operating by different rules already... PCs were "better" than the standard NPC.

I understand the weird "hey, why can they do that but I can't?" feeling players will get... but in the end, they are operating with different toolkits. Generally they're following the same core system rules, but the PC class are something special/different/atypical. I know it can creative a dissonance at times, but it may need to be explained to players that NPCs just have different tools than they do; it's the way the game is designed. A player only has to worry about controlling their one character- the GM has to handle every NPC. It helps that the NPCs are simplified, typically, to one or two-trick lite-versions.

Edit: a note on the HP disparity between PCs and NPCs... well yeah, hit dice, right? But if you don't mind widening the gap between PC and NPC even more (hey, the gladiator is already doing two dice of damage instead of one per swing) you CAN do as Mike Mearls (and many others) have suggested and lower HP while raising damage. ~35% lower HP, 35% higher damage. That'll put that gladiator at 73hp, much lower than 112! Of course he'll also be doing about 15 damage per hit instead of 11...

 

[Stalker0]

Same thing as above... gladiator has 15 hit dice! It's basically a level 15 fighter-lite, it SHOULD be getting 3 attacks!

I think that comes back to the world building issue from some people. If you accept this is a 15th level "fighter lite"...ok that explains the stats. But it doesn't explain why my 7th level party just faced two 15th level characters. I mean....isn't 15th level extremely extremely rare?

 

[Stalker0]

The 2014 gladiator hits pretty hard for a CR 5 with its three attacks as well. I like to have them Shield Bash an opponent prone so they get advantage on their next two Spesr attacks. Very gladiatorial.

funny enough it actually doesn't. Its damage is 33....right on the bottom edge of CR 5 damage. I was surprised myself, when I saw it in a fight I thought it looked pretty rock solid...but its stats are actually on the low end of a CR 5....and that's for the 2014 in 2024 its likely even lower.

 

[Stalker0]

So funny enough, I just ran another couple of gladiators in a different game (this game was 13th level, so they were just meant to be a bit of buffer).

And as soon as I did my attack, the party went "whoa that guy gets 3 attacks!!!!????"

hehe I guess when its so hard to get a 3rd attack as a pc, when an npc gets it everyone notices.

 

[John R Davis]

I for one adore that NPCs/Monsters play by different rules. Makes them much easier to create and run, IMO

 

[Distracted DM]

isn't 15th level extremely extremely rare?

I see where you're coming from, but that's assuming that PCs and NPCs are built with the same rules again- which they are not. And we touch on the "levels aren't a real thing in the world... but would I know that that gladiator is more powerful than that veteran? What separates them? What about my paladin as opposed to that knight?" Well there are some niche character features that can inform a PC of the target's AC, HP, CR, etc... but I'd prefer to make that some knowledge that can be attained by encountering the NPC in question, whether by fight, by demonstration, or by discussion ("can you tell he's a dangerous opponent by the way he holds himself?").

But back to the fact that PCs and NPCs are built differently, "aren't level 15 characters very rare?", well yeah a level 15 PC might be rare. But apparently you can find a 15 hit-die gladiator in most arenas. I guess this discussion starts to drift back to "the PC classes are really different from other characters in the world."

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm surprised that it's the gladiator that stood out.. it's basically the same as the 5e14 gladiator- it saw almost no changes to 5e24.


The thug NPC statblock became pretty infamous at our tables. CR 1/2, 30hp, 2 attacks, pack tactics. But really, they have 5 hit dice. If we called them fighter-lite, they should be getting two attacks. Pack tactics, ha, well.. that's something else.


Same thing as above... gladiator has 15 hit dice! It's basically a level 15 fighter-lite, it SHOULD be getting 3 attacks!

Let's not forget 3e with its NPC classes, they were basically PC-lite: warriors had the same base attack bonus, but had d8 instead of d10 hit die, and no fun extras. I guess in short, they were operating by different rules already... PCs were "better" than the standard NPC.

I understand the weird "hey, why can they do that but I can't?" feeling players will get... but in the end, they are operating with different toolkits. Generally they're following the same core system rules, but the PC class are something special/different/atypical. I know it can creative a dissonance at times, but it may need to be explained to players that NPCs just have different tools than they do; it's the way the game is designed. A player only has to worry about controlling their one character- the GM has to handle every NPC. It helps that the NPCs are simplified, typically, to one or two-trick lite-versions.

Edit: a note on the HP disparity between PCs and NPCs... well yeah, hit dice, right? But if you don't mind widening the gap between PC and NPC even more (hey, the gladiator is already doing two dice of damage instead of one per swing) you CAN do as Mike Mearls (and many others) have suggested and lower HP while raising damage. ~35% lower HP, 35% higher damage. That'll put that gladiator at 73hp, much lower than 112! Of course he'll also be doing about 15 damage per hit instead of 11...

Anything that puts them closer to an appropriately-leveled PC is worth looking at in my book.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I see where you're coming from, but that's assuming that PCs and NPCs are built with the same rules again- which they are not. And we touch on the "levels aren't a real thing in the world... but would I know that that gladiator is more powerful than that veteran? What separates them? What about my paladin as opposed to that knight?" Well there are some niche character features that can inform a PC of the target's AC, HP, CR, etc... but I'd prefer to make that some knowledge that can be attained by encountering the NPC in question, whether by fight, by demonstration, or by discussion ("can you tell he's a dangerous opponent by the way he holds himself?").

But back to the fact that PCs and NPCs are built differently, "aren't level 15 characters very rare?", well yeah a level 15 PC might be rare. But apparently you can find a 15 hit-die gladiator in most arenas. I guess this discussion starts to drift back to "the PC classes are really different from other characters in the world."

A principle I will fight as much as I need to in my own games.

 

[pukunui]

funny enough it actually doesn't. Its damage is 33....right on the bottom edge of CR 5 damage. I was surprised myself, when I saw it in a fight I thought it looked pretty rock solid...but its stats are actually on the low end of a CR 5....and that's for the 2014 in 2024 its likely even lower.

OK maybe it just feels like it then. In my experience, the 2024 gladiator has always been a tough combatant when ever I’ve put the PCs up against one (or more).