D&D (2024) 2024 needs to end 2014's passive aggressive efforts to remove magic items & other elements from d&d

[CapnZapp]

Or allow characters to have abilities that aren't magic and aren't inexplicably bumped to level 9, 12 or freaking 17, or limited to once per super long short rest they're not likely going to get.

This is true. Reminds me of high level ranger abilities that would break absolutely nothing if handed out at half level...

 

[CapnZapp]

you can always find items that are useless to you, or just not very useful.

Funny story from one campaign,
DM made 4 custom magic items for our party of 4, from a big boss fight and a treasure hoard.

we identify those items, and going straight to Waterdeep, we decided to sell them all.

I saw guys will for d&d drain from him in real time as we sold custom made items that he spent time designing them for bunch of +1 stock weapons and armors and some cheap uncommon/common items. It was sad and hilarious at the same time.

It does make me think of (some but certainly not all) of Griffon Saddlebag's stuff.

Illustrations and some descriptions are usually top notch, but boy is there a lot of faff with no utility. When you have three half-decent attunement items, very few of even his most rare items are worth checking out (if they too require attunement).

 

[CapnZapp]

Of course, the value of anything is situational.

But in the context of D&D 5e, there is an aggregate, where most character optimizer players find certain options highly useful most of the time.

It is character optimizers who determine the value because they are the ones who are paying close attention to the mechanics and exploitability.

Yes.

One huge mistake is to bring story and flavor into a magic pricing discussion.

The only consideration needs to be utility, and nobody brings better arguments than the minmaxers. Always design a magic item with the extremes in mind.

Then that discussion can be invisible to most gamers.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Never is it a sustainable solution to hope the textbook will force DMs into doing things against their will.

The books could stop 'empowering' and encouraging them though.

 

[CapnZapp]

A wizard still needs items for saving throw bonuses.

That's the issue.

5e is modelled after 2e and 3e that both used magic items. So it must have magic items bonuses factored in.

No?


While a wizard usually can only get saving throw bonuses from items, he doesn't need saving throw bonuses.

 

[CapnZapp]

This habit of arming the hostiles with magic items, likewise helps the math when the player characters also tend to have magic item.

No this arms race was a bane in 3E.

The only way NPCs could compete with monsters and heroes in 3E was by giving them loads of magic items. Even completely faceless mooks routinely sported +1 weapons once you reached the low high levels.

This meant it was impossible to keep heroes from looting lotsastuff. This allowed heroes to buy even more power, requiring the next set of NPCs to be decked out in even more gear.


---

That NPCs pose some threat to 5E heroes even without a single magic item is a great strength of the edition. That 5E have weaned players off looting every corpse, because regular mooks simply never have anything worth looting, is a great strength of the edition.

 

[Yaarel]

No this arms race was a bane in 3E.

The only way NPCs could compete with monsters and heroes in 3E was by giving them loads of magic items. Even completely faceless mooks routinely sported +1 weapons once you reached the low high levels.

This meant it was impossible to keep heroes from looting lotsastuff. This allowed heroes to buy even more power, requiring the next set of NPCs to be decked out in even more gear.


---

That NPCs pose some threat to 5E heroes even without a single magic item is a great strength of the edition. That 5E have weaned players off looting every corpse, because regular mooks simply never have anything worth looting, is a great strength of the edition.

There is no "race". It just means that any magic item that a DM chooses to introduce into the game, sees use against player characters first.

If player characters already have magic items and hostiles have a new one, it tends to balance out.

I didnt mean that every hostile has magic items, only the ones who the DM uses to introduce a new one.

 

[CapnZapp]

Target bad saves. The fighters and barbarians get held or charmed.

The wizard types get chucked off cliffs or melt.

You do know it isn't a competition?

Yes, it's trivial for a half-competent DM to off his player characters.

But that's not the point, is it? Your job as DM is to provide yourself and the players with entertainment.

Most players would agree, if given time to think, that the only reason their characters are alive is ultimately because their DM isn't out to get them.

A script writer could easily have all the heroes die. Yet it isn't a flaw that the heroes don't try to protect themselves from this fate.

TL;DR: It isn't a weakness of the game that you can't make yourself invincible.


(Full disclosure: Yes, I think it's a shame the cost of getting six good saves isn't just reasonably very high, but insurmountably high. But no, it isn't a flaw as in "if I can't build an impregnable hero something's wrong with the game" sense)

 

[Minigiant]

No?


While a wizard usually can only get saving throw bonuses from items, he doesn't need saving throw bonuses.

A wizard doesn't need saving throw bonuses if you baby them. But they need them at least as much as any other class.

The wizards saving throw proficiencies are INT and WIS which are not the most common amongst spells cast and effects applied by monsters. If targeted by spellslingers, poisoners, and afficters, the HP of mental focused casters drop fast and they find themselves in more vulnerable positions in a game where in combat healing is rarely done.

 

[Minigiant]

You do know it isn't a competition?

It's not a competition.
It's that most classes only have proficiency with 2 of their 6 saves and one of them is almost always their prime score*

Feats and magic items that boost saves are near mandatory after level 9.

*only Dex fighters, Dex Palllies, and STR rangers don't