D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Arcane Archer -- Nifft's Version!

[FrankTrollman]

Looking at this as a Wizard's PrC is an error. It's not a specialized caster, it's a magical archer. Note the Requirements: 3 Feats, BAB 5+, and 1st-level spellcasting. It hasn't got much Wizard in it.

Just by taking wizarding to the point of casting 1st level spells you are behind on your Warrior by at least one level. Wizard gives you no BAB, and no Warrior abilities - putting you at least an entire level behind. Remember that being 2 levels behind you are half a character, and so on.

So the minimum entry is:

6th level character with 5 levels of Warrior and 1 level of Wizard. You are a Warrior and a Wizard. You are:

1 level behind as a Warrior, this makes you 71% of a character of your level.
but you are also
5 levels behind as a Wizard - which means that you are simultaneously 18% of a character of your level.

Altogether that's about 89% of a character of your level - weak, but playable. The problem is that if you ever fall any farther behind in Wizardry or Fighting you are less than 89% of a character of your level. And that's too much.

That's how the game balance math actually works out. Being a Fighter Wizard is unbalanced if you are more than a certain number of total levels behind in magic and fighting vs. a single classed character. Level proportion doesn't make any difference at all.

So any time you don't get a spellcaster level, that level had better be worth two levels of Barbarian (including BAB and Hit Dice) - or the character is falling farther behind.

And since they are already sub par - that's inexcusable.

-Frank

 

[Spatzimaus]

That's how the game balance math actually works out. Being a Fighter Wizard is unbalanced if you are more than a certain number of total levels behind in magic and fighting vs. a single classed character. Level proportion doesn't make any difference at all.

So, compare a Bard to a Fighter/Sorcerer. A level 10 Bard has the BAB and HP of a 7th-level Fighter (without bonus Feats), and the spellcasting ability of a 6th-level Sorcerer. By this math he's 35%+25%=60% of a character? But wait, that ignores all the extra skill points and class abilities he gets.

This version of the Arcane Archer has more skill points than either Fighters or Wizards, with a skill list that includes Hide and Move Silently. It has a good number of class abilities. Two good saves, full BAB... it's definitely more than the sum of its parts.

Anyway, back to the original point. I'd just make a few suggestions for ability tweaks.

I like Arrow Touch. The biggest problem, though, is that it costs you a turn; you cast a touch spell, and then the next turn fire an arrow at someone. True Strike is the same sort of thing; at low level this might be reasonable, but by high levels can you really afford that much time for one attack?

Combined Casting just seems a bit awkward as is; the spell you cast might have nothing to do with your attack. I'm sure this is nice for things like buffs. You could make it into a higher-level version of Arrow Touch, though; how about:

Combined Shot (6th level): As a full-round action, you can both cast a touch or ranged touch spell and deliver it with a single arrow to your target.
(Phrased another way: casting a touch spell becomes a Move-Equivalent Action that doesn't draw an AoO if you then use the Arrow Touch ability to deliver it, so you can cast the spell AND deliver it in the same turn.)

Penetrating Arrow just seems a bit weak; with the 5/10 caster level the class gives you, you'll already be really far behind on SR checks. If you really want to keep it about "penetration", add a DR-neutralization ability as well.

Instead, how about moving Arcane Shot II to level 8, and then adding something like:
Innate Shot (10th level): As a standard action, you can both cast a touch, single-target, or area spell and deliver it with a single arrow to your target.
(Phrased another way: casting a spell that can be put in a Spell Storing arrow becomes a Free Action (quickened spell, so only 1/round) if you then use the Arrow Touch ability to deliver it.)

 

[Zad]

I was just re-reviewing the class and seeing what it would do to me for a reference. Noticed a typo. Your last bullet says Arcane Shot I when it should be II.

As a side note, I'm not sure Arcane Shot I is right. Seems a little on the weak side. If I dump a third level spell, I only get +3 damage? That seems fairly inconsequential and a bad tradeoff. Heck magic missles do better. AA's can rarely cast high level spells, so it's probably safe to bump this to more damage per spell level.

Another thing I like about this is that either I can use a high enhancement-bonus bow, and use adders from the class like flaming etc, or use my class abilities for magic arrows and get flaming etc from my bow. But there's no waste.

The only downside is if I take flaming early, and want flaming burst later, but that seems minor.

 

[Zad]

So the minimum entry is:

6th level character with 5 levels of Warrior and 1 level of Wizard. You are a Warrior and a Wizard. You are:

Answer: Silly.

The minimum path you mention is not a good one. As a 5th level fighter you gain nothing but hit points. A better entry path is 4th level fighter, 2nd level wizard.

You still hit 4th in fighter to gain the weapon spec feat which is key. But to get that last point of BAB, you may as well do it in your spellcasting class and gain the spells and caster level. You give up a few hp but it's minor in the long run.

 

[Nail]

Nifft: I am so gonna steal your PrC and your formatting. Both rock! (My formatting skilz, OTOH, are not so great. )

Here's my tweaks:

Arcane Archer

(copy all of Nifft's model) then tweak:

[u]Lvl  BAB Fort Ref Will  Spellcasting  Special Abilities[/u]
 1   +1   +0   +2   +2       --       Enhance Arrows(+1)
 2   +2   +0   +3   +3    +1 Level    Imbue Arrow
 3   +3   +1   +3   +3    +1 Level    Penetrating Arrow, Enhance Arrows(+2)
 4   +4   +1   +4   +4        --      Improved Imbue Arrow
 5   +5   +1   +4   +4    +1 Level    Bonus Feat, Enhance Arrows(+3)
 6   +6   +2   +5   +5    +1 Level    Arrows of Energy
 7   +7   +2   +5   +5        --      Combined Casting, Enhance Arrows(+4)
 8   +8   +2   +6   +6    +1 Level    Arrows of Energy (II)
 9   +9   +3   +6   +6    +1 Level    Enhance Arrows(+5)
10  +10   +3   +7   +7    +1 Level    Arrows of Energy (III)

Special Abilities:

• Enhance Arrow (Su): At 1st level, every arrow an arcane archer shoots gains a +1 enhancement bonus. (As usual, this does not stack with other enhancement bonuses, like those from a magical bow or arrow.) The arcane archer's arrows are only magical if she shoots them. For every two class (arcane archer) levels, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater enhancement (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).
  
• Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an arcane area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered (or origniates) on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.
  
• Penetrating Arrow (Su): Starting at 3rd level, when using any of herimbue arrow abilities, an arcane archer may add her class level as a bonus to caster level checks when trying to overcome a target's Spell Resistance. This bonus stacks with caster levels gained as an Arcane Archer, as well as with feats like Spell Penetration.
  
• Improved Imbue Arrow (Su): At 4th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a touch attack arcane spell upon an arrow. In all other respects, this ability functions that same as Imbue Arrow.
  
• Bonus Feat: At 5th level, an arcane archer gains an additional feat, which may be used for any metamagic or item creation feat, or one from the following list: Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, Mounted Archery, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run.
  
• Arrows of Energy (Su): At 6th level, an arcane archer choses one special effect her arrows may have. This decision is fixed once made. Then, as a free action, an arcane archer may make any arrow she shoots (as many or as few as she wishes) take on that special effect. The list of special effect choices are: Bane, Distance, Flaming, Frost, Ghost Touch, Keen, Merciful, Seeking, Shock, or Thundering (see DMG magic ranged weapons section) . At 8th level, and again at 10th level, the arcane archer may chose an additional special effect. Only the Bane effect may be taken more than once, and only for a different type of creature. Special effects may be stacked on an arrow, up to the normal limit for magical arrows (an effective +10 total enhancement; this includes the enhancement bonus to damage).
  
• Combined Casting (Su): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the Arcane Archer may both cast a spell (with a Casting Time of 1 standard action) and use a standard attack action with the bow. This ability may not be used with the Imbue Arrow or Improved Imbue Arrow abilities.

 

[FrankTrollman]

So, compare a Bard to a Fighter/Sorcerer. A level 10 Bard has the BAB and HP of a 7th-level Fighter (without bonus Feats), and the spellcasting ability of a 6th-level Sorcerer.

No he doesn't. His variable spell effects come in at 10th level. He casts a 4th level spell every day (which could include Legend Lore - which the Sorcerer wouldn't get until 12th level). He penetrates SR as a 10th level character.

He's not a full caster, but there's no way in hell that he's 4 levels behind.

As to Fighting, he can Inspire Greatness in himself every battle - so he isn't exactly 3 levels down as a warrior either.

The minimum path you mention is not a good one. As a 5th level fighter you gain nothing but hit points. A better entry path is 4th level fighter, 2nd level wizard.

I didn't say Fighter - I said Warrior Class. The character would more than likely be a Ranger 3/Fighter 2 - or even a Ranger 2/Fighter 2/ Barbarian 1. I am well aware of the fact that Fighters get kicked in the nuts every other level starting at 3rd. That's an entirely different balance problem.

-Frank

 

[Zad]

Sorry - I tend to focus on fighters as the best AA lead-in for the cherished weapon specialization. Personally I think it's the best way to go but we have a tendency to avoid having 2 levels in six different classes in our games.

 

[Nifft]

I like Arrow Touch. The biggest problem, though, is that it costs you a turn; you cast a touch spell, and then the next turn fire an arrow at someone. True Strike is the same sort of thing; at low level this might be reasonable, but by high levels can you really afford that much time for one attack?

Here's the thing: there are several Touch-ranged spells that allow more than one touch. I'm thinking that Ghoul Touch and Chill Touch would be popular at low level, and the Combined Casting class ability would synergize well with Vampiric Touch and Touch of Idiocy.

(Phrased another way: casting a touch spell becomes a Move-Equivalent Action that doesn't draw an AoO if you then use the Arrow Touch ability to deliver it, so you can cast the spell AND deliver it in the same turn.)

That's already the way Combined Casting works... I should clear that up.

Penetrating Arrow just seems a bit weak; with the 5/10 caster level the class gives you, you'll already be really far behind on SR checks. If you really want to keep it about "penetration", add a DR-neutralization ability as well.

It's there to compensate for a weakness, not to be a strength. Since the class is intended to be an archer more than a wizard, it might be a totally useless ability. Hmmm... what about a "Power Attack" type thing, that allowed an Arcane Archer to subtract a number of BAB and add that number to Caster Level for the purpose of penetrating SR? Would that be unbalanced?

The "Arcane Shot" ability is there for DR -- however, you're probably right about it being too weak. How about a version modeled on Psionic Shot:

Arcane Shot I (Su): As a free action, the Arcane Archer may expend a prepared spell and focus its energy into one of her arrows. If the arrow strikes, it deals +1d4 damage per level of the spell used. The spell is expended even if the arrow misses.

Arcane Shot II (Su): As Arcane Shot I above, except the arrow receices +1/spell level to the attack roll and +1d6/spell level to the damage roll.

-- N

 

[Spatzimaus]

That's already the way Combined Casting works... I should clear that up.

Well, the way Combined Casting works as written allows ANY spell, followed by a single attack. My suggestion was to limit it to only use spells deliverable through arrows, but improve the ability at higher levels by allowing single-target and area spells to go into the arrows and reducing the time needed further.

It's there to compensate for a weakness, not to be a strength. Since the class is intended to be an archer more than a wizard, it might be a totally useless ability.

If it's there to compensate for a weakness, I'd say increase its power a bit more. At 1st level, give +1 to caster level for effects you deliver through arrows, increasing by +1 at each odd level (to +5 at 9th level), which'd entirely make up for the low caster level from the reduced spellcasting levels. So, a Wizard X/AA Y would have the same caster level as a Wizard X+Y when putting spells in arrows; of course, he'd be using much lower spells.

The "Arcane Shot" ability is there for DR -- however, you're probably right about it being too weak. How about a version modeled on Psionic Shot:

Arcane Shot I (Su): As a free action, the Arcane Archer may expend a prepared spell and focus its energy into one of her arrows. If the arrow strikes, it deals +1d4 damage per level of the spell used. The spell is expended even if the arrow misses.

Arcane Shot II (Su): As Arcane Shot I above, except the arrow receives +1/spell level to the attack roll and +1d6/spell level to the damage roll.

Better. It's now a lot closer to that Feat that lets you sacrifice arcane spells for attack/damage boosts. If you sacrifice a 8th-level spell (the highest you could get, as a Wiz 10/AA 10) you'd be able to compare to the Rogue's best Sneak Attacks in damage, with a far higher attack bonus.
What I'd worry about is the quantity; a high-level Sorcerer might have 30-40 non-cantrip spells per day, averaging 3rd level or so. With Arcane Shot 2, I can just use the ability on every single shot I make, for an average of +3 attack and +3d6 damage to each arrow. The +attack makes up for the Sorcerer BAB, so compared to a straight Fighter I can do considerably more damage even if I use my spells only to power this one class ability. And that's not even considering Imbue Arrow. It might just be a bit much.

Anyway, possible changes:
1> Instead of Free Action to power Arcane Shot, make it act as a Quickened spell, with the usual 1/round limit. No using a Full Attack to wipe out everyone in one round...
2> Give the damage a specific type, say, [Force]. That way, it's possible for people to compensate for it.

 

[Nifft]

Well, the way Combined Casting works as written allows ANY spell, followed by a single attack.

True. I'm okay with that. Since the caster level won't be great, throwing around a Fireball isn't efficient, and I don't care if the ArcArch decides to self-buff while firing a single arrow.

If it's there to compensate for a weakness, I'd say increase its power a bit more.

Check out the current Penetration mechanism.

1> Instead of Free Action to power Arcane Shot, make it act as a Quickened spell, with the usual 1/round limit. No using a Full Attack to wipe out everyone in one round...
2> Give the damage a specific type, say, [Force]. That way, it's possible for people to compensate for it.

I don't really see how the [Force] type would restrict the damage much, since it's not a spell and therefore not subject to SR or prevention by the Shield spell.

As to damage, consider that a level 1 spell can generate 5d4+5 (equivalent to 5d6) damage, with no miss chance. IMHO it's not unfair to trade that for a chance at doing +1d6 damage.

Likewise, a 2nd level spell can do up to 12d6 Fire damage. It's not unfair to trade that for a chance at +2d6 damage.

I agree that it's a more powerful feature for Sorcerers than it is for Wizards, but it's good for both -- in either case, you can choose non-damage spells and "convert" them into damage.

Compared to Psionic Shot, it deals two dice less damage: Psionic Shot converts the cost of a 2nd level Power into +3d4 damage, and the cost of a 3rd level Power into +5d4 damage.

I think this is a flexible prestige class, and I hope it's not overpowered in any single respect.

-- N