D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes

[Destil]

I've always felt the real problem is how archers get a lot of attacks, so the +1 Flaming Icy Thundering Acidic et cetera bow is a very good bonus to damage, and then you throw down the GMW and it's a +5 all of a sudden.

Really, the issue that needs to be worked on is the issue of other bonuses and the enhancement of GMW.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Easy fix: Bring back rate of fire for missile weapons and lose rapid shot. 2 attacks with a bow or 4 with a sword? I know which one I'd choose.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Well, I'm kind of on the bubble on the stacking issue; I can see arguments for both sides.

However, I do not think it's fair, as some suggest, that you limit magic bows to attack bonuses only and ammunition to damage only.

Why? Because if you do that, the magic bow suddenly becomes much less worthwhile than an echanted melee weapon of similar power.

Right now, a +3 longbow and a +3 mace are worth about the same because they both add three to attack and damage. Remove the damage bonus from bows and you've seriously sliced its value. The only fair solution then is to cut down the price of magic distance weapons, and that starts getting complex. Also, it means there's no point to enchanting bows with features like flaming or keen; you'll never convince me that it makes sense for a bow to transfer its flaming quality, but not its +3 bonus, to the arrow.

Let them stack, or not, but don't limit bows to attack and arrows to damage. Just doesn't work.

 

[RedSwan78]

Without thinking about it too much, a pretty good thing that I thought of as soon as I saw that Andy Collins line was this:

Completely get rid of magical "ammunition". You need to buy a Magical launcher (bow, crossbow, sling). Everything "fired" from the launcher is a "magical" projectile.

There you go, problem solved. So now every arrow fired from a +2 Bow gets +2 to attack and +2 to dmg, and of course works against a creatures DR of "+2". *Same thing* as if it was a LongSword, just from range. Also, the player has to keep buying arrows. How many arrows can that player carry? Make them keep track. Sure they can use extra-dimentional holders, but that costs some money to do that, and melee's don't have to pay that.

This also gets rid of having a "+1 shocking, acidic, fire, sonic, xxx, yyy, zzz" bow, because it's only ever going to fire +1 arrows. Edit Greater Magic Weapon so that only the bigger bonus applies. You have a +1 bow and get a +4 GMW cast on it? It's a +4 bow. Also, you know how weapons can only have a total of +10 enhancements? Make GMW abide by that. If you have a +1 bow with 7 "abilities on it, that's a +8 weapon, so the most you can get out of a GMW would be an additional +2.

There you go, pretty quick and down and dirty rules that I think are pretty damn effective, and good. You no longer have an archer firing with a +10 from his GMW'd (+5) bow shooting GMW'd (+5) ammunition.

Anyway we can get the designers to look at this?


Afterthought- the only problem I see with this, is the new DR changes (which I won't get into in this thread). How are they expecting 3.5 archers to deal with this? Will there be "cold iron" arrows? Will there be "xxxx" and "yyyy" arrows? I sure hope they're thinking about that sort of stuff.

 

[Steverooo]

Completely get rid of magical "ammunition". You need to buy a Magical launcher (bow, crossbow, sling). Everything "fired" from the launcher is a "magical" projectile.

Arrows of Slaying, et al? Bows of Slaying? That sounds like more than a +5-value enchantment...

 

[Gez]

Melee combat is already superior to long-range one in D&D. Even with stacking of magical bonuses (which becomes costly very quick, unless you use magic weapon spells, since arrows, bolts, and even friggin' sling bullets get destroyed once they hit, and half the time when they don't), an archer optimized to archering is never going to make as many damage as a melee optimized for meleeing. Cleave + 1.5 times Strength bonus (conveniently raised far above 18 thanks to magic) + AoO and reach + power attack. Beside, you never run out of ammo with a greatsword.

Sometimes, D&D focuses too much on "balance" and not enough on verisimilitude. I somewhat expect that in the revision, if a 1st-level character bull rush someone into a lava pit, the lava will only deal 1d6 fire damage per round, because 20d6 would be munchkin for a first-level PC...

 

[Bauglir]

Easy fix: Bring back rate of fire for missile weapons and lose rapid shot. 2 attacks with a bow or 4 with a sword? I know which one I'd choose.

That doesn't fix anything, just swings the pendulum over to melee.

The whole point of balance is that you don't know what you'd choose...

 

[Gez]

That doesn't fix anything, just swings the pendulum over to melee.

The whole point of balance is that you don't know what you'd choose...

But that's the point. Melee is more dangerous, since the opponent may strike back (as if PCs were the only one with ranged attacks). So, archery (and its little brothers) need to get nerfed into pointlessness so that sane heroes, rather than doing something logical (hiding and sniping), make something "interesting" (charging and cleaving). In fact, if it wasn't for elves, who needs bow for their character concept, ranged weapons would have been eliminated entirely from the game. Who need to throw missiles at other people when you may just toss fireballs would have been the rationnal.

 

[Henrix]

The only complaint I've got with archery is that it is so easy to get to use full strength bonus.
I'd much prefer mighty bows to just let you use half your strength bonus.
The magical ammunition is balanced out by it being used up at a rather alarming rate, but it makes GMW a little too good.

 

[Gez]

The only complaint I've got with archery is that it is so easy to get to use full strength bonus.
I'd much prefer mighty bows to just let you use half your strength bonus.

Actually, that's the case. They cap at +4. Which is half the strength of a 26 Strength fighter. Which are commonplace starting at the mid-levels. Actually, it can be achieved with a 3rd-level party (half-orc + rage + bull strength = up to 29 Strength). By the time you reach 10-12 level, any party would have a tank capable of pulling such an trick.