D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Rapid Shot is better than TWF, IMO.
In order to use TWF, you must get a full-round attack. You must get a full round attack to use Rapid Shot as well, but you can do this whether your opponent is moving or not.
You also get your full damage bonus on every attack, and don't have to spend an additional feat to get +1 damage (the difference between a dual-sword and a longsword/short sword combo).
I haven't found Rapid Shot to be overpowered, but then again I always stay more than 30 ft. away from my opponent (and I wouldn't bother with Weapon Spec (longbow)).
Maybe if I closed and enjoyed +4 damage per hit (specialization, bracers of archery, point blank shot) I would find it overpowered
On the other hand, I've found TWF to be underpowered, and the -2 hit penalty hurts at the lower levels. (You can get a higher attack bonus with archery, pretty much negating the attack roll penalty, and then there's Bracers of Archery...)
In order to use TWF, you must get a full-round attack. You must get a full round attack to use Rapid Shot as well, but you can do this whether your opponent is moving or not.
You also get your full damage bonus on every attack, and don't have to spend an additional feat to get +1 damage (the difference between a dual-sword and a longsword/short sword combo).
I haven't found Rapid Shot to be overpowered, but then again I always stay more than 30 ft. away from my opponent (and I wouldn't bother with Weapon Spec (longbow)).
Maybe if I closed and enjoyed +4 damage per hit (specialization, bracers of archery, point blank shot) I would find it overpowered
On the other hand, I've found TWF to be underpowered, and the -2 hit penalty hurts at the lower levels. (You can get a higher attack bonus with archery, pretty much negating the attack roll penalty, and then there's Bracers of Archery...)
Having been through this argument numerous times before. The criticisims of Archers basically come down to 3 points
1) GMW too powerful - BAD
2) Rapid Shot too good - BAD
3) Too Easy to Get Full Attack - BAD
In my experience though the people who argue these points are almost never willing to conceed that there are drawbacks to archery, that counter balance the advantages. Not to mention in particular they ALWAYS want to assume that the GMW that is being cast is +5 which doesn't even happen until 15th level. I'm tired of it so I have just one more thing to say.
Stalingrad : The War Dragged On...
1) GMW too powerful - BAD
2) Rapid Shot too good - BAD
3) Too Easy to Get Full Attack - BAD
In my experience though the people who argue these points are almost never willing to conceed that there are drawbacks to archery, that counter balance the advantages. Not to mention in particular they ALWAYS want to assume that the GMW that is being cast is +5 which doesn't even happen until 15th level. I'm tired of it so I have just one more thing to say.
Stalingrad : The War Dragged On...
Murrdox
First Post
Personally, we've never actually had a hardcore archer in our group, so this really hasn't come up much IMC.
However, my personal preference would be:
1) Eliminate bow and ammunition enhancement bonus stacking.
This would effectively mean: Simply take the greater enchancement of the two: A +1 bow firing +2 arrows gets a +2 to attack and damage. A +2 bow firing +1 arrows gets a +2 to attack and damage (but for purposes of DR, is only a +1 weapon)
All other bonuses still stack. Thus, if you have a +1 Flaming bow, and you have +2 keen amunition, you get a +2 enchancement bonus to the attack and to damage, you get the flaming, and you get the keen, and your attack is +2 for DR purposes.
Obviously, similar bonuses still do not stack, such as if you had a +1 flaming burst bow, and were firing +1 flaming ammunition. Your shots would count as +1 flaming burst, not +1 flaming flaming burst.
2) Significantly reduce the price for magical ammunition. With all the new types of DR, archers will most likely need more types of ammunition for different situations. Make ammunition the same price as armor and shields in terms of cost for enhancement bonus.
3) Either reduce the number of arrows affected by GMW, or decrease the duration of the spell.
However, my personal preference would be:
1) Eliminate bow and ammunition enhancement bonus stacking.
This would effectively mean: Simply take the greater enchancement of the two: A +1 bow firing +2 arrows gets a +2 to attack and damage. A +2 bow firing +1 arrows gets a +2 to attack and damage (but for purposes of DR, is only a +1 weapon)
All other bonuses still stack. Thus, if you have a +1 Flaming bow, and you have +2 keen amunition, you get a +2 enchancement bonus to the attack and to damage, you get the flaming, and you get the keen, and your attack is +2 for DR purposes.
Obviously, similar bonuses still do not stack, such as if you had a +1 flaming burst bow, and were firing +1 flaming ammunition. Your shots would count as +1 flaming burst, not +1 flaming flaming burst.
2) Significantly reduce the price for magical ammunition. With all the new types of DR, archers will most likely need more types of ammunition for different situations. Make ammunition the same price as armor and shields in terms of cost for enhancement bonus.
3) Either reduce the number of arrows affected by GMW, or decrease the duration of the spell.
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green slime
First Post
Yes, well, about those Archer PrC... They aren't available IMC. So that sort of nerfs those ideas.
Then looking at Rapid Shot, I still aren't convinced that it is all that bad. I remember reading SKR's analysis, I wasn't too impressed, it didn't tell the whole story. And now I can't find it on his site...
DR, yes well only to a degree; the lowering of the Damage threshhold will still see arrows being effectful. I hope they retain the stacking of all bonuses, although after all the fuss about archers, I see why they wouldn't.
Archery isn't really safer... Only if you are fighting creatures that can't reach you, or have their own ranged attacks. But that goes for any ranged attack form. Archery would still be safer in that case even if it only did 1d1 -5 in damage...
What I think Andy was suggesting was
1) the nerfing of GMW.
2) Seperating to hit and Damage for bows and arrows.
Then looking at Rapid Shot, I still aren't convinced that it is all that bad. I remember reading SKR's analysis, I wasn't too impressed, it didn't tell the whole story. And now I can't find it on his site...
DR, yes well only to a degree; the lowering of the Damage threshhold will still see arrows being effectful. I hope they retain the stacking of all bonuses, although after all the fuss about archers, I see why they wouldn't.
Archery isn't really safer... Only if you are fighting creatures that can't reach you, or have their own ranged attacks. But that goes for any ranged attack form. Archery would still be safer in that case even if it only did 1d1 -5 in damage...
What I think Andy was suggesting was
1) the nerfing of GMW.
2) Seperating to hit and Damage for bows and arrows.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
Why I think Rapid Shot will be changed
1. SKR did his analysis and I haven't seen any other devs really jump down his throat over it (as opposed to the Mystic Theurge debate). Not that SKR has much say any more. It may also mean no one thinks it's all hat big of a deal. I personally think it's a pretty minor issue.
2. Look at the revised Many Shot (repost from one of the 3.5 Spotlights):
-4 is specifically worse than the -2 version in the ELH. And would suggest a trend that Rapid Shot would be lowered.
Personally, just the changes to DR and GMW (both of which have issues beyond archery) are enough to adjust archery damage.
1. SKR did his analysis and I haven't seen any other devs really jump down his throat over it (as opposed to the Mystic Theurge debate). Not that SKR has much say any more. It may also mean no one thinks it's all hat big of a deal. I personally think it's a pretty minor issue.
2. Look at the revised Many Shot (repost from one of the 3.5 Spotlights):
-4 is specifically worse than the -2 version in the ELH. And would suggest a trend that Rapid Shot would be lowered.
Personally, just the changes to DR and GMW (both of which have issues beyond archery) are enough to adjust archery damage.
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Gez
First Post
Archery is technically powerful. More than melee ? I don't think so. I said it why before (first page). Yet, there are other points.
Mainly one. Most encounters don't give you the time to shoot enemies from safe distance. Whether in dungeon or in a city, the fight start at melee. When you do have distance, the wizard take care of the encounter with a web[/b]* or a fireball.
(* Web is much more unbalanced than haste, harm, magic missile or anything you can think of. A saving throw don't really help you. And the opponents you get at the levels you use spells are unlikely to succeed at their Strength check. How many creatures with a CR below 10 have Str 40, which is a minimum to advance at a reasonable rate in the webbed zone ?)
Mainly one. Most encounters don't give you the time to shoot enemies from safe distance. Whether in dungeon or in a city, the fight start at melee. When you do have distance, the wizard take care of the encounter with a web[/b]* or a fireball.
(* Web is much more unbalanced than haste, harm, magic missile or anything you can think of. A saving throw don't really help you. And the opponents you get at the levels you use spells are unlikely to succeed at their Strength check. How many creatures with a CR below 10 have Str 40, which is a minimum to advance at a reasonable rate in the webbed zone ?)
Valiantheart
First Post
The most logical thing for them to do is give bows a bonus to hit and arrows a bonus to damage.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
Gez said:
If our games were like this I would agree. However, as written the game doesn't suggest most encounters should start out at melee range. Spot or Listen range is the mechanic used. If anything the option of staying at range is more likely since the AoO mechanics unique to 3.0+ make it less desireable to blow past the melee guys and take out the ranged characters. Plus you still have the 5' step adjustment.
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