D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Bard's power?

[Argyle King]

Read Bardic Music more carefully. ONLY the Fascinate ability uses a preform check. Suggest can be use only one creature at a time and has a DC based on 10 + CHA mod + 1/2 bard level. One you suggest you first target, the rest of the fascinated creatures begin to come out of the fascinate effect. Why? The bard stops playing the fascinate music to play the suggest music, all the will come out of the fascinate effect in 5 rounds.

Recently the my DM used a Nymph half-fiend with levels of bard at us. Turnabout is fair play.

It's been a few years since I've played 3.5, so I may have misremembered how it worked. I know there was some way to increase my suggestion DC; maybe it was through feats. There was a monster feat which helped increase the DC of a supernatural effect, right?

However, I'm pretty sure what I said about the prc is correct. It was either in Complete Arcana or Complete Mage. I'll have to break out ye olde foot locker full of 3.5 and check later.

Also, weren't there ways to play multiple songs at a time? Maybe that was something I got out of a splat also.

 

[Empirate]

Good advice on spell selection, Greenfield, but one thing stuck out to me as misleading:

In combat he'll be second string at best.

Look at Dandu's build linked above, and tell me that that guy is second string in melee... Inspire Courage doesn't only affect your teammates, it helps you along quite nicely, as well. Combined with feats like Snowflake Wardance and fitting equipment like the Crystal Echoblade, you can get one heck of a smack out of your Bard.

 

[TanisFrey]

It's been a few years since I've played 3.5, so I may have misremembered how it worked. I know there was some way to increase my suggestion DC; maybe it was through feats. There was a monster feat which helped increase the DC of a supernatural effect, right?

However, I'm pretty sure what I said about the prc is correct. It was either in Complete Arcana or Complete Mage. I'll have to break out ye olde foot locker full of 3.5 and check later.

Also, weren't there ways to play multiple songs at a time? Maybe that was something I got out of a splat also.

In wizards 3.5 I can't think of a way to get 2 songs a round. However, after you stop playing a song its effects linger for 5 rounds. So, you can be under the effects of more that 2 songs at any given time. Just like a wizard or cleric buffing other up, they can only do one spell per turn but you can be effected by more than one song.

So a bard is rude by fascination someone and then forcing up to 5 saves against a suggestion they want to plant. Of course this uses up 2 to 7 uses of bardic music to plant one suggestion.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Try it with Words of Creation (this is just an excerpt of the feat):

Yes, and Inspirational Boost, and Song of the Heart. I know. The bard is already very good at two areas that, while undeniably powerful, make me queasy about optimizing them -- buffing, and social skills. Bardic Knowledge is an ability that is great in the game and great for the game. Stacking bonuses on IC does not meet the latter criteria IMO (nor does Diplomancy).

 

[Greenfield]

In wizards 3.5 I can't think of a way to get 2 songs a round. However, after you stop playing a song its effects linger for 5 rounds. So, you can be under the effects of more that 2 songs at any given time. Just like a wizard or cleric buffing other up, they can only do one spell per turn but you can be effected by more than one song.

So a bard is rude by fascination someone and then forcing up to 5 saves against a suggestion they want to plant. Of course this uses up 2 to 7 uses of bardic music to plant one suggestion.

Actually, the SRD says that ...

Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability.

So the Suggestion is essentially "free", in terms of songs used, and doesn't interrupt the Fascinate effect. Several people, one at a time, can get Suggested, all on a single use of a Bard's song.

 

[Empirate]

All this talk about 5 rounds in which to plant suggestions is groundless. Inspire Courage's effects linger for 5 rounds after the Bard stops performing. This is not a quality all Bardic Music possesses, though.

Fascinate can be kept up for 1 round/Bard level, and you have to concentrate the whole time. Using Suggestion doesn't break concentration, but the round in which you plant one counts against the 1 round/level limit.

 

[TanisFrey]

Actually, the SRD says that ...

So the Suggestion is essentially "free", in terms of songs used, and doesn't interrupt the Fascinate effect. Several people, one at a time, can get Suggested, all on a single use of a Bard's song.

Looks like I missed one of two details.

I would personal limit one free suggestion per use of fascinate effect to keep it from being abusive.

 

[Dandu]

Oh, yes. Bards definitely need the nerf.

 

[Alexander123]

Oh, yes. Bards definitely need the nerf.

The things that people nerf are very strange. This kind of things came up alot in the What do you ban thread that was being discussed a while ago.

 

[Argyle King]

Looks like I missed one of two details.

I would personal limit one free suggestion per use of fascinate effect to keep it from being abusive.

That's pretty much why I was banned from playing a bard in the previously mentioned GM's game again.

Imagine how bad it became when I had mass suggestion.



I think part of the reason why people feel Bards are underpowered is because too many people think in terms of damage and things of that nature. In my opinion, if I mentally dominate the entire enemy side without firing a single shot, the fight's over.