3.5 breakdown at high levels?

[Runestar]

So, the solution to overly complex monsters is buying books that came out several years after the release of the edition.

Gotcha.

While draconomicon did not exist at the time MM3.5 was released, it sure does exist now. While I do agree that it may be costly to have to buy the book just for a few stats (it is unlikely you will actually require all the stats inside), the point is that there are alternatives now which help make the DM's job easier.

Another option is simply not being masochistic and wanting to stat out complex npcs which use material from 10+ splatbooks. For example, I try to keep to 1 class whenever possible.

I am not sure what is so complex about reverse-engineering the dragon stat-blocks in the MM. What are the issues you have faced?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Spatula - Is there a CR 17 dragon statted up in the Monster Manual (3.5)? I don't have that book with me, so I cannot check.

If there is not, then your point is entirely invalid.

Yes, there is. There are a few.

And then there's the fact that CR17 is almost indistinguishable from CR16 or CR18 anyway so you might as well just use any of those.

There are also a lot of CR16s and CR15s you can easily add templates or class levels to.

If you can't add 2 levels of Fighter to a dragon IN YOUR HEAD, ON THE FLY, AT THE TABLE, you shouldn't be running 17th level games. You're in over your head, and you need more experience. Period.

 

[c47]

One of the major headaches we had at the 17th-19th levels was disjunction. In the description it implies that it is dangerous to do so because of the chance of losing spell casting abilities. Now this is a big deal for the player but for the NPCs.

Evil NPC Spellcaster: "Hell I've got 4-6 heroes killing me right now I think I will risk it."

Problem is that almost every bad guy spellcaster you meet will probably end up in the same mind set. This means that it becomes a de-facto spell cast at the players. What does it do. Oh it makes ALL you magic items *poof*. Okay, okay, there is a will save but that just means that maybe the clerics and some wizard items will remain. The great portion of those on the fighters will be gone.

In 3.5 losing your magic items and high level is very bad news. Apart from the investment of money and xp that may have gone in to them, the character is also now a fraction of his "actual" level in power. If you've done this a few times to the characters then they are likely to only have a fraction of what they "should" for their level. Now some DMs will say that this is good. Realists will realize that this will a) piss off the players and b) mean the next adventure will be even tougher for them and may even be deadly because they no longer have the AC/Saves/Damage power they would normal have at that CR.

We've ended up making the disjunction spell become an "Even Greater Dispel Magic" with basically no upper limit on the number you add to the dice. This is far less headaches and player bitching.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

One of the major headaches we had at the 17th-19th levels was disjunction.

I believe that "fixing" the problems caused by Mordenkainen's Disjunction is even easier than adding 2 levels of Fighter on the fly.

 

[Fenes]

Definetly. If the "suppressed for 1-X rounds" Dispel effect is not enough, the duration could be set at 1 hour, or 1 day, for example. It makes it a good spell to cast for an arch mage, but not a character wrecker.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Definetly. If the "suppressed for 1-X rounds" Dispel effect is not enough, the duration could be set at 1 hour, or 1 day, for example. It makes it a good spell to cast for an arch mage, but not a character wrecker.

I was thinking more along the lines of just banning the spell. Problem solved.

 

[Hussar]

Yes, there is. There are a few.

And then there's the fact that CR17 is almost indistinguishable from CR16 or CR18 anyway so you might as well just use any of those.

There are also a lot of CR16s and CR15s you can easily add templates or class levels to.

If you can't add 2 levels of Fighter to a dragon IN YOUR HEAD, ON THE FLY, AT THE TABLE, you shouldn't be running 17th level games. You're in over your head, and you need more experience. Period.

Really? What two feats would you add to a CR 15 dragon, in your head? Never minding adding 10 skill points, 15 hit points, oops, did that bump the BAB high enough for iterative attacks? What happens when the dragon grapples?

Of course, you're also ignoring 10 or 15 levels of sorcerer that have to be figured out for spells in that mix as well.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Really? What two feats would you add to a CR 15 dragon, in your head? Never minding adding 10 skill points, 15 hit points, oops, did that bump the BAB high enough for iterative attacks? What happens when the dragon grapples?

Of course, you're also ignoring 10 or 15 levels of sorcerer that have to be figured out for spells in that mix as well.

I think if Wulf says "adjust in your head, at the table", he means something like add +2 to attack, ~20 hit points and +1 to saves.
Not actually working out the precise details according to the system.

And I think that's the entire point against the 3E system - sure, I can just ignore the rules, but ignoring is not using, or even benefiting from the rules.

Well, I hate using the evil number 4 here, but that's exactly what 4E makes the rule. Which I personally find way more comfortable. Especially because I know that I didn't miss anything important (like that an NPC would have better gear now, more spells or feats for the monster, ability score increase... Sure, each individual might seem inconsequential, but these errors stack...)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Really? What two feats would you add to a CR 15 dragon, in your head?

It depends on what he already has, obviously. Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon focus; Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder; Combat Expertise, Improved Trip. It's a long list.

Never minding adding 10 skill points,

You're right about that-- never mind adding 10 skill points. Who ing cares?

15 hit points,

That was hard.

oops, did that bump the BAB high enough for iterative attacks?

+2 BAB. Real tough math.

What happens when the dragon grapples?

People die.

Of course, you're also ignoring 10 or 15 levels of sorcerer that have to be figured out for spells in that mix as well.

You're darn right, I'm ignoring them. Divide the number of sorcerer levels by two to get your top level of spells, pick two or three spells known per spell level, and then let the dragon cast 4-7 of each chosen as needed as the combat evolves. The combat will be over before the entire spells known/spell slots is relevant.

I know you're not a dumb guy, Hussar.

 

[Hussar]

You actually have a PHB open to the spell section and choose spells as needed during play?

And you can do that fast enough that it doesn't take hours to run that combat?

I certainly can't. I don't have that kind of memory for spells, mostly because I don't play spell casters. Without actually reading the spells, I couldn't really tell you what most fifth level or higher spells do.

Again, and I'm repeating myself here, the abiity to fudge and ignore a ruleset IS NOT A STRENGTH OF A RULESET, ITS A WEAKNESS.