D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Can a Bbn/Drd wield a glaive while wildshaped as a dire ape?

[green slime]

double post.

 

[green slime]

Wild shape says "as polymorph"

Polymorph says "as alter self"

Alter self says

from the SRD:
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

My take is that it does resize, if the new form is such that it can use it. Otherwise you have to shaft the wizard and tell him he's naked as soon as he polymorphs into anything not medium sized. Of course equipment changes too if it can be used.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Caveat: I know that it's likely no one on this forum has a clue what the rule would be, but I am curious to read your opinions.

My opinion? You couldn't wield the weapon when in dire ape form. You could bash with a club, and I'd let you get away with simple weapons (which are basically, duh, simple to use) but I wouldn't allow you to use any martial weapon. Your hands and arms are too different.

Cheers

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: [3.5] Can a Bbn/Drd wield a glaive while wildshaped as a dire ape?

Your hands and arms are too different.

Gosh... I look at the picture of the Locathah in the Monster Manual, and think "the gorilla's hands look pretty normal to me!"

-Hyp.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Re: Re: [3.5] Can a Bbn/Drd wield a glaive while wildshaped as a dire ape?

Gosh... I look at the picture of the Locathah in the Monster Manual, and think "the gorilla's hands look pretty normal to me!"

-Hyp.

If their hands are different then their martial weapons will have different grips on them to be appropriate for them. Besides, they're used to their hands, having grown up with them.

I don't see that as an issue. YMMV

 

[Zhure]

Re: Re: Re: Re: [3.5] Can a Bbn/Drd wield a glaive while wildshaped as a dire ape?

Here's a shot of a gorilla hand:

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/primates/GorillaHand.jpeg

Dang, that looks like a scan of my hand.

 

[Iku Rex]

Would the glaive therefore become a Large size weapon if he's holding it when he wildshapes into an ape?

Yes.

Hope it works out in my favor, I wanna be the glaive-wielding raging barbarian dire ape with Combat Reflexes and a 15-foot zone of control!

Now throw in nature's favor (MotW) and animal growth and you'll be quite the little combat monkey.

 

[jgsugden]

Wildshape invokes polymorph which invokes this language in alter self:

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

We need to be precise here. I see a lot of people quoting the rules following this sentence for what happens when a polymoprhed creature reverts to normal form from its assumed form. Those are not the appropriate rules. The appropriate rules are those for when a new form is assumed. Regarding equipment issues when a new form is being assumed, there is only the one sentence listed above.

In order for the equipment not to merge, it must either:

a.) be held at the time of the change and be an item that the new form is capable of holding, or

b.) be worn at the time of the change and be an item that the new form is capable of wearing.

There is no D&D specific definiton of capable, so we use a standard English dictionary definition of capable: "Having the qualities necessary for". As long as the new form has qualities necessary for holding or wearing the object, that object should not meld.

There are no real world dire apes, but it is fairly safe to assume that a real ape is an acceptable model for a dire ape for determining if it is capable of holding a weapon. If you do a quick look on google for "ape picture", you'll find a number of sites with silly posters of apes holding things with their hands. An ape is capable of holding a weapon, so weapons, in general should not merge with the new form. I'll discuss armor later.

As for weapons resizing during a polymorph: There is no provision in wildshape, polymorph or alter self to resize weapons. In fact, Andy Collins (the guy responsible for the 3.5 PHB) provided the following quote that says that weapons do not resize in a polymorph effect:

If the fighter likes being polymorphed into a giant, he'd better bring along some bigger armor and weapons (or else figure out a method of "sizing up" his stuff on the fly).

That quote comes from the "3.5 Q&A unanswered questions" thread on the WotC 3.5 Q&A board.

So, in total, the dire are should end up with a poorly sized glaive (which causes a penalty to hit and medium size glaive damage instead of large size glaive damage).

As for armor, the armor should not fit an ape. They may be vaguely humanoid, but not so much that they would be capable of wearing the armor, even if it did resize. Because of this, it should meld into the new form instead of remaining.

As a separate note, items other than armor or weapons do resize. It is just these two things that do not.

 

[ForceUser]

Ah well, so much for my grand idea. Guess I'll just sell the stupid glaive then, since I intend to stay in dire ape form as much as possible.

 

[Iku Rex]

So, in total, the dire are should end up with a poorly sized glaive (which causes a penalty to hit and medium size glaive damage instead of large size glaive damage).

I hate to admit it, but I think you're right. The spell is ambiguous, Andy isn't. Equipment "remains worn", but stays the same size.

This has serious consequences for both polymorph and shapechange.

Of course, alter self also says that a piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. So either the person who wrote the spell doesn't agree with Andy, or we have yet another polymorph foul up.

(My theory: WotC has some guy who's only job is to find new ways to make polymorph even more incomprehensible and unplayable. Mere incompetence cannot explain the endless stream of polymorph idiocy they keep publishing. )