D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Charge problems (Do NOT post here, please. Use [3.5] and [3.0] topics)

[Artoomis]

This has been brought up before, but only partially, I think.

In 3.5e 3 things have been added to charge, two of which conflict with other rules (or otherwise make no sense) and are not a needed change anyway.

1. You cannot charge though "difficult terrain." Thus seems a restrictive change, but I guess it's okay.

2. You cannot charge through friendlies. You can , however, go right through opponenets who choose to let you go by if you Overrun. This is a change that just does not make sense and cannot really be justified without a change or elimination of Overrun. Why should opponents be able to get out of your way but allies not? We won't be using this change in our group.

3. You must move directly toward the designated opponent. This is a problem because the Ride-by Attack feat lets you continue your charge after the attack, but makes no provision for going through your opponent. This does not seem to be a needed change and disallows the archetype mounted lance joust-type combat. Our group won't use this change either, we will keep the old rule that you must go in a straight line, but must stop when you threaten your designated opponent..

Given the change to Rhino Hide armor these last two changes seem to be attempting to fix a non-existent problem

Thoughts?

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Feats supercede the normal rules for a maneuver usually. Therefore Ride-by Attack still works as usual.

I'm of two minds about the charging through allies change - I can certainly see why you can't do this normally. I think the easiest workaround is to declare an overrun on allies, overrun allows the target to side-step and thus avoid the overrun. Boom - problem solved.

Difficult terrain you are going to be hard pressed to convince me that charges should be allowed normally. Bad footing, minor obstacles, uneven ground, all prevent an uninterrupted run at an opponent. If it reduces you to half-speed (ie. 5ft of movement costing you 10ft) then you can't run through it effectively.

I've seen just about too many strange charge-like maneuvers (including people running backwards so they get the 10ft move enough to charge back in and get the bonus) to be sympathetic.

- Ma'at

 

[Artoomis]

Feats supercede the normal rules for a maneuver usually. Therefore Ride-by Attack still works as usual.

Correct - but Ride-by Attack makes no provision for going through an opponent. Thus Ride-by Attack is impossible within the rules as written.

I've seen just about too many strange charge-like maneuvers (including people running backwards so they get the 10ft move enough to charge back in and get the bonus) to be sympathetic.

Moving backwards is clearly not allowed. Charging is not easy to set up, even under 3.0 rules (I should know, my character tries to do it all the time). It usually takes at least on round to set up the charge.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Correct - but Ride-by Attack makes no provision for going through an opponent.

You're not listening. I'm saying that Ride-by Attack means you don't have to run straight through the opponent's area, contrary to the standard charge rules. Actually, since you are mounted (a 10x10 space) you can choose to simply squeeze through the area as you move (cost double move, incur AoO).

Moving backwards is clearly not allowed. Charging is not easy to set up, even under 3.0 rules (I should know, my character tries to do it all the time). It usually takes at least on round to set up the charge.

We fight with monks and mounted warriors - it is not that hard to set up charge, especially if you use a Move action to wheel into position, then you charge as your standard action.

edit: however, I just found the rule saying charge is a full-round action. I am very happy now.

 

[Artoomis]

[BYou're not listening. I'm saying that Ride-by Attack means you don't have to run straight through the opponent's area, contrary to the standard charge rules. [/B]

Interesting interpretation. It would need to say that in Ride-by Attack, but your way works. I think I'll change my mind and do it that way.

Ride-by Attack would then read something like (changes in italics):

RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge (except that you do not have to move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent) and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Normal: You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent and your charge ends there.
Special: A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[AuraSeer]

Charging is not easy to set up, even under 3.0 rules (I should know, my character tries to do it all the time). It usually takes at least on round to set up the charge.

IME, charging is extremely simple to do when it's appropriate. At the beginning of combat, unless the enemy is in some restricted area (like up on a balcony), the front-line fighters can almost always charge.

A close-range melee clusterhoozy will prevent charging on subsequent rounds, but that's as it should be. Spending time to "set up" a charge in that situation is an odd kind of metagaming, as it doesn't even gain much of an advantage.

 

[Artoomis]

IME, charging is extremely simple to do when it's appropriate. At the beginning of combat, unless the enemy is in some restricted area (like up on a balcony), the front-line fighters can almost always charge.

A close-range melee clusterhoozy will prevent charging on subsequent rounds, but that's as it should be. Spending time to "set up" a charge in that situation is an odd kind of metagaming, as it doesn't even gain much of an advantage.

Ah, but my character is small and on a Riding Dog, and so can use Ride-by Attack to charge every round. Of course, that does not usually work out so well, and he could often do more damage by just closing and using full attacks, but where's the fun in that?!?

 

[The Souljourner]

As written Ride-By-Attack does not work as you would think:

When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

Nowhere does it say you can charge next to the guy instead of straight at him, so technically you have to overrun him or something similar after the charge, since you have to charge straight at him and have to keep moving in a straight line.

Of course, I doubt that's what they meant, but that is what it says.

-The Souljourner

 

[Artoomis]

As written Ride-By-Attack does not work as you would think...

Nowhere does it say you can charge next to the guy instead of straight at him, so technically you have to overrun him or something similar after the charge, since you have to charge straight at him and have to keep moving in a straight line.

Of course, I doubt that's what they meant, but that is what it says.

-The Souljourner

Thanks. That was my point on this aspect of charging.

You would need to either change Ride-by Attack or Charge for Ride-by Attack to work.

 

[reapersaurus]

We fight with monks and mounted warriors - it is not that hard to set up charge, especially if you use a Move action to wheel into position, then you charge as your standard action.

Are you saying you've been using Charge in the same round that you Move in?
Without being hasted?!

No wonder you see no problems with 3.5 (needless) restrictions on charging.

Charging is not easy to set up.

Overrun is even more rare and difficult.