[3.5]Cohort and Paladin's Mount

[FireLance]

It seems to me that a paladin has four options when it comes to mounts:

(1) The "standard" option as stated in the PH. The mount gains abilities as normal.

(2) The "unusual mounts" option stated in the DMG p204, which looks like the DotF list. The mount gains abilities at a slower rate, similar to how the animal companions available for higher-level druids gain abilities more slowly.

(3) Use Leadership to attract a cohort to serve as a mount, as stated in DMG p205 and DMG p200. This option is open to all characters, not just paladins. If the paladin already has a special mount, he takes a -2 penalty to his Leadership score. The mount is a cohort, not a special mount - it does not gain abilities tied to the paladin's level.

(4) Use the Paladin Cohort Mount option on DMG p200. The cohort attracted by the paladin gains the abilities of a special mount of the paladin's level. This adds an additional +2 LA (minimum) to the cohort mount's ECL as it is more powerful than the cohort mount in option (3), but presumably the paladin does not take a -2 penalty to his Leadership score since the cohort is the special mount.

Options (2), (3) and (4) are of course subject to DM approval.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

(4) Use the Paladin Cohort Mount option on DMG p200. The cohort attracted by the paladin gains the abilities of a special mount of the paladin's level. This adds an additional +2 LA (minimum) to the cohort mount's ECL as it is more powerful than the cohort mount in option (3), but presumably the paladin does not take a -2 penalty to his Leadership score since the cohort is the special mount.

Has anyone else noticed that this option doesn't actually make any sense at all?

If I am an 8th level paladin I could have my normal 8HD heavy warhorse or...

I could dismiss by normal mount, spend a feat on Leadership, and attract as my cohort mount a 4HD heavy warhorse. (6th level cohort equivalent = 4 HD + 2 LA).

 

[Artoomis]

Has anyone else noticed that this option doesn't actually make any sense at all?

If I am an 8th level paladin I could have my normal 8HD heavy warhorse or...

I could dismiss by normal mount, spend a feat on Leadership, and attract as my cohort mount a 4HD heavy warhorse. (6th level cohort equivalent = 4 HD + 2 LA).

Here is an example of how this could work.

As a 15th level Paladin, I have an 8 hit die Celestial Riding Dog (1 level behind on Paldin mount powers, so it's 2HD + 6 more for being a special mount).

Celestail + Mount = +4 ECL, for a 6 ECL critter if taken with Leadership.

Now add in Paladin mount powers and he could have ECL 13 (14 not allowed per Leadership), or hit fie. Two more than he has now.

So it can work out for the lesser critters.

 

[FireLance]

Has anyone else noticed that this option doesn't actually make any sense at all?

If I am an 8th level paladin I could have my normal 8HD heavy warhorse or...

I could dismiss by normal mount, spend a feat on Leadership, and attract as my cohort mount a 4HD heavy warhorse. (6th level cohort equivalent = 4 HD + 2 LA).

This probably falls into the realm of sub-optimal choices. Don't forget that a special mount gets a minimum bonus 2HD which kind of offsets the +2 LA anyway.

A Very Young Silver Dragon is Medium-Size and the equivalent of a Level 14 character (10 HD, +4 LA). With the +2 LA for a Paladin Cohort Mount, a Small 17th-level paladin with a Leadership score of 23 (easily attainable if you have 22 Cha) could have a bonded Silver Dragon mount with 18 HD. Not too shabby, eh? May even be too good.

Medium-Size paladins are out of luck, though - no dragon mount for them. The lowest-level Large dragon is an 11 HD Very Young Gold, and it's the equivalent of a 16th-level character (+5 LA). Since the Leadership table tops out at 17th level, there's no way a non-Epic Medium-size paladin can get it as a special mount. He could still attract it as a cohort and ride it as a regular mount, though.

 

[Cedric]

Ok...so...I can have a 9th level Cohort...and a Paladin Mount Cohort has +2 LA.

So, if I have a Paladin Mount Cohort it can have 7 hit dice, right? So, a typical Heavy Warhorse is 4 hit dice, +2 hit dice for being a Paladin's Mount of a 5th level Paladin.

So if I make it celestial, that will add +1 ecl. So affectively it would be 4+2+1+2 = 9...so that works out perfect right?

Now, once I advance and I can get a higher level cohort...is there any way for my Mount to advance? Or would he only advance if I took levels in Paladin and qualified for Paladin Mount advancements?

Also...since my mount has a higher int, would he be able to take classes and advance that way, even though horses usually can't? Maybe give him a few levels of Ranger or something, heh. My dual hoof wielding, tracking horse...

Cedric

 

[Artoomis]

Cedric:

1. Celestial is Level +2

2. Non-humanoids don't advance in classes (it's in the new MM).

3. Cohorts ARE granted experience. How this works with a non-classed monster I am not sure, but it seems like it should be a case of one of those very rare critters that can advance in hit die (I would not do size increases) even if the MM does not list an advancement for them.

 

[Cheiromancer]

2. Non-humanoids don't advance in classes (it's in the new MM).

That must be a mistake. No Minotaur Fighters? No Hill Giant Adepts? No Mind Flayer Sorcerers?

 

[Artoomis]

That must be a mistake. No Minotaur Fighters? No Hill Giant Adepts? No Mind Flayer Sorcerers?

Sorry. I meant humanoid-like. As in not quadrapeds or something along those lines.

 

[Artoomis]

Here is the actual text:

Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.
Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Yes, but that text doesn't say I CAN'T make non-humanoid monsters with class levels, it just says "usually" or "most commonly". To me that translates to "it's sub-optimal not to". Taking a level of Fighter doesn't help as much if you can't use equipment, and taking a level of Wizard doesn't help much if you don't have hands or a voice. So, advancing the monster HD is the "safe" choice, even thought the benefits are less.

For example, one of my 3E characters was a Giant Owl nicknamed "Tweety", who had gained a couple Magical Beast HD for the size change, and then took Psion levels. People kept assuming he was the Paladin's mount, even though his INT was higher than half the party (including the Paladin). As a Psion he didn't need hands or a voice, and all those monster HD kept him alive pretty well. So, in his case, Psion was a perfectly valid choice. (Once he learned Polymorph Self going into towns wasn't even a problem any more...)

Or how about Dragons? They take character classes too, after all. Looking at the dragons posted on the WotC website, there are quite a few.

Anyway, as to the original topic, IMC we threw out both the DotF "special/cohort Mount" rules and the 3.5E rules early on, replacing them with a system we like better. I'd strongly recommend doing the same.